How a vegan Appalachian Trail record-breaker fueled up - Press Herald

[Sarcasm the elf]

This is not true at all (and I should know since I'm an ecologist/wildlife biologist). At least 120 species on the US endangered species list are there, at least in part, because of overhunting/exploitation. Lots of animals in the US are still overexploited, especially predators. Hunting/poaching is preventing the recovery of Mexican wolves, and hunting has pushed numbers of the grey wolf way down in the northern rockies. Illegal killing has basically made it impossible for the red wolf to make a recovery in the Southeast. There are lots more examples.

In many states, the game departments set bag limits and seasons with almost zero knowledge of the size of the hunted population. Go look at any state's hunting regulations. Do you really think they know exactly or even roughly how many there are of each species? No, not even close. Even for the heavily hunted species, it's mostly guesswork based on the last year's take. I spend almost all of my work time thinking about how to count animals--it's really hard, and almost no one does it well. Especially poorly funded state fish and wildlife agencies where there is generally not a lot of quantitative expertise. They might have okay estimates for deer and elk. For everything else, they mostly have no idea. And since no one is counting, people don't notice that a population is being overexploited until it crashes, like sage grouse (which are amazingly still hunted in many states despite the government spending millions and millions of dollars to recover them before they get listed as endangered).

First off don't start a response with "This is not true at all" and then cherrypick what you choose to refute, it's just rude.
Second, the main point of my response, which you chose to ignore was that in the US, it is habitat loss that is by and large that is the greater threat to wildlife than hunting. As a biologist do you actually disagree with this? Perhaps I should have specified legal hunting since I don't consider ranchers illegally shooting wolves to be hunters, but I do understand your point.
Since you mention sage grouse, everything I have read points to development and habitat loss as the main causes of their population decline, though I do agree that a hunting moratorium should have been put in place for the species long ago. I would be interested to know your opinion of this as well because I will admit you probably know more about it that I do.
Finally as I said, the excise tax on hunting and fishing equipment is the single largest source of conservation funding in the country and is worth accounting for in any broad based discussion about hunting in the US. As a biologist I hope you are aware of this as well. One of my greatest long term concerns about conservation in this country is that as we move from a more rural to a more urban nation we lose large amounts of land to development and urban sprawl. At the same time there is a steady and continuing decline in people purchasing hunting licenses and equipment as our more urban population has both less access and less interest in the pursuit. I fear this is bringing us to a point where we will have both less open space as well as less conservation funds to preserve what is left.

[burger]

Sarcasm the elf:

1) I didn't mention habitat loss because it's a no-brainer. I was disputing your statement about hunting being a non-factor in wildlife declines. That is categorically false.

2) The first thing you should do when a species is seriously declining is stop ****ing hunting it. That's such a no brainer, but the state agencies are addicted to the money from hunting fees and roll over when the hunting groups grouse (pun intended) about hunting bans, so it will not happen until the sage grouse are declared endangered.

3) If the Pittman tax was voluntary, I'd say, bully for hunters for being stand up guys! But it's not--it's congressionally mandated. So you don't get to claim that hunters are awesome, magnanimous fellows for paying a tax that they have to pay. Just like I don't get to claim that I am funding the war in Afghanistan because some of my taxes go there. Also, P-R funding is only a very small fraction of total spending on public lands and wildlife conservation in the US (I could dig up the numbers here which I have somewhere, but I don't really feel like it). If it dried up tomorrow, state agencies would have to cut back some programs, but the net effect would be very small.

The vast, vast majority of public lands users are wildlife watcher, hikers, campers, and general nature tourists. Hunting is slowly but surely disappearing, as you mention, and if we are to reverse the ongoing loss of natural areas, it will be because non-hunters wake up to the problem. I know hunters think that they are the ultimate conservationists, but there are not enough hunters to make a difference in the long run. The Republicans in Congress just killed the LWCF which was one of the most effective (and cheapest) programs for increasing public lands. Things will not be better so long as one party in congress continues on an anti-environmental platform.

Ironically, most hunters vote republican (42% R vs. 18% D in the last poll I could find). Maybe if hunters started to vote for the party that likes public lands and not the party that wants to sell public lands to the highest bidder, things would be a little better.

[rickb]

[QUOTE=WingedMonkey;2010249]

And where do you think the egg factories send a hen when it's prime is past?

To a chicken retirement home?

Or the male chicks.

[Vegan Packer]

Vegans are people that do not consume animal products of any kind. We also do not use products that are made from animals. Vegetarian is a loose term that can mean almost anything. There are people that eat everything but beef, and maybe pork, that call themselves vegetarians.

There are Olympic gold medalists, record setters, body builders, champion weight lifters, and every other kind of top professional athlete that are among the very top ranked and that are vegans. A proper diet does not require consuming animal products of any kind, and you can get all of the protein and nutrients that a healthy diet requires without consuming animal products. As you get older, you will benefit tremendously from making such a change.

For all of the people that are here that love the beauty of nature, you should take a scientific look at what is the result of our animal agriculture, overfishing, and what we are doing to this planet due to our desire to consume and use animal products. For example, livestock is the largest source of methane gas emissions worldwide, contributing over 28 percent of total emissions. If you really love taking care of the trails and nature, changing over to products that do not make such a devastating impact on our planet would support this preservation of where we hike that you desire.

These days, it is pretty easy to make the switch. For example, did you know that White Castle now has vegan burgers? There are all kinds of gourmet foods that taste great, even for non-vegans, that are right in the supermarket. Did any of you watch my video of my recent backpacking trip to Washington? I ate all gourmet while on the trail, and it was all healthy, and it was all vegan. (Well, I did allow some flexibility with things like sugar, since that dehydrates better than what I would usually use.) Going vegan is not so hard to do, if you do it in a way that doesn't make you suffer.

All of my backpacking equipment is vegan. Now, there's one that is super easy to do.

Yes, we have impacts on our planet, even if we do our best to try to keep those to a minimum. However, there are easy steps that we can take to keep those to that minimum, and many can be offset the negatives.

I am happy to share my trail recipes with anybody that wants to start eating healthier, delicious meals on the trail.

[Dogwood]

I'm glad that article on Scott Jurek's Vegan dietary specifics for his FKT was shared. I was wondering specifically what he was eating. He was consuming 6000 cal/day about 100 cals/hr minimum. He lost 20 lbs in less than 7 wks and he gained those 20 lbs back in one month after the hike. Gaining 20 lbs in a month seems rather extreme.



Lots of far ranging interesting perspectives on this thread.

[gpburdelljr]

One third of vegetarians eat meat when drunk.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0e66ad4c69f50

[Tipi Walter]

I've been a vegetarian (no meat, no fish) for around 43 years and in that time I have eschewed eggs and dairy and then would come back to them. The important thing to me is to avoid meat products, and then dabble with eggs/dairy sometimes yes, sometimes no. Often if I felt like I was getting sick (head cold, flu), I would quit cheese and eggs and things would clear up.

I go through phases. On my last backpacking trip and for several months I've been vegan, but now I'm adding goat butter to my meals.

It's difficult for me to go very long without goat cheese, especially on my backpacking trips. On my next trip I won't be carrying cheese but mostly home dried vegetarian chili and dried brown rice---with a little goat butter thrown in.

But one of the best backpacking meals I have found is excellent goat cheese sliced up with a fresh red apple and a handful of walnuts. Perfect.

Being a strict vegan is not needed in my opinion although there are times healthwise when it's important. My take on it anyway.

[pauly_j]

millions of small mammals and birds are killed yearly by machines harvesting veggies so if you don't raise your own veggies and eat store bought stuff you're a hypocrite

This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.

One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.

So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.

[Casey & Gina]

One third of vegetarians eat meat when drunk.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0e66ad4c69f50

Hahaha, that is funny! It is true though - I know that if I get drunk I make lots of stupid choices I usually avoid, like smoking cigarettes. Easiest solution for me is to just avoid drinking. I really don't believe anyone always perfectly adheres to their morals regardless of what they are.

To reiterate my stance I think a perspective that is either dogmatic or "all-or-nothing" is seriously detrimental. I would rather be imperfect and readily admitting my faults, happy that the choices I make 99% of the time are in accordance with what I feel is best, than one who claims perfection and hides any inadvertent mistakes and feels guilty and stressed about it.

[Casey & Gina]

Being a strict vegan is not needed in my opinion although there are times healthwise when it's important. My take on it anyway.

Great point! There are also times when the best thing for our health is to not eat at all, but that isn't very sustainable.

[Tipi Walter]

Great point! There are also times when the best thing for our health is to not eat at all, but that isn't very sustainable.

Totally agree with this. Periodic fasting is a vital component to good health in my opinion.

[Kookork]

This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.

One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.

So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.

A carnivore /ˈkɑrnɪvɔər/ meaning 'meat eater' (Latin, caro meaning 'meat' or 'flesh' and vorare meaning 'to devour') is anorganism that derives its energy and nutrient requirements from a diet consisting mainly or exclusively of animal tissue, whether through predation or scavenging.^{[1][2] From Wikipedia}

See, here is my instance. I think most (emphasis on most )of the vegans/vegetarians chose it because they think it is good for their body and it makes them feel healthier. This argument/fact that using no meat is good for conserving our plant earth is just a by product of being vegetarian. I have a friend that is vegan because in her childhood she saw slaughter of a lamb and it was traumatizing for her but she does not rub in my face that she is saving our planet .

Also I have not seen non vegans ( call us regular meat eaters)attack the vegans until they are attacked first by vegans because of their meat eating is called destroying the planet and/or causing cruelty to animals.

Ps: Calling regular meat eaters Carnivore is almost like calling Vegans/vegetarians Ruminants. It just does not sound friendly or inviting. We are omnivore if any term needs to be used.

[Casey & Gina]

Also I have not seen non vegans ( call us regular meat eaters)attack the vegans until they are attacked first by vegans because of their meat eating is called destroying the planet and/or causing cruelty to animals.

It most certainly does happen. Most annoying is when it is with a coworker or family member - you go out to a restaurant or otherwise eat together and the other person ends up frustrated that you won't eat meat. Last time my mother visited we went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and she harassed me about it continually. Last time I visited my grandmother she was nearly in tears because I didn't want to eat some things she made with meat (she knew I was vegan and considers herself to be vegetarian, but will do things like making a soup using sausage "just for the flavor", then removes the meat pieces and feeds them to her dog and considers the remaining soup to be "vegetarian"...). People at my workplace randomly give me crap about it all the time, despite me never trying to push my agenda on them or even disclosing my preferences unless asked.

That said, I have seen a bigger presence of dogmatic vegans which I feel do more harm than good. By far the most extreme example of that I have ever seen is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw

Ps: Calling regular meat eaters Carnivore is almost like calling Vegans/vegetarians Ruminants. It just does not sound friendly or inviting. We are omnivore if any term needs to be used.

I agree, but sometimes it is a self-inflicted term. See above in this thread for an example of someone using the term "meatitarian" for referring to themselves - I think sometimes omnivores choose to use a word like "carnivore" or "meatitarian" to make it clear that they are not just non-vegetarian, but are actively against it. That said even a person who is staunchly anti-vegetarian in their own meals can be very respectful and courteous to those of a different outlook.

What is key is for everyone to realize they can only really control their own actions, and to be respectful to others who make different decisions for themselves. It's fine to respectfully discuss, explain, and even encourage one's own stance; it's not fine to get overly upset and condemn others for choosing something different. Food choice seems to be a very touchy subject, and few are willing to up and change their beliefs and habits overnight.

[Casey & Gina]

Also I have not seen non vegans ( call us regular meat eaters)attack the vegans until they are attacked first by vegans because of their meat eating is called destroying the planet and/or causing cruelty to animals.

It most certainly does happen. Most annoying is when it is with a coworker or family member - you go out to a restaurant or otherwise eat together and the other person ends up frustrated that you won't eat meat. Last time my mother visited we went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and she harassed me about it continually. Last time I visited my grandmother she was nearly in tears because I didn't want to eat some things she made with meat (she knew I was vegan and considers herself to be vegetarian, but will do things like making a soup using sausage "just for the flavor", then removes the meat pieces and feeds them to her dog and considers the remaining soup to be "vegetarian"...). People at my workplace randomly give me crap about it all the time, despite me never trying to push my agenda on them or even disclosing my preferences unless asked.

That said, I have seen a bigger presence of dogmatic vegans which I feel do more harm than good. By far the most extreme example of that I have ever seen is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw

Ps: Calling regular meat eaters Carnivore is almost like calling Vegans/vegetarians Ruminants. It just does not sound friendly or inviting. We are omnivore if any term needs to be used.

I agree, but sometimes it is a self-inflicted term. See above in this thread for an example of someone using the term "meatitarian" for referring to themselves - I think sometimes omnivores choose to use a word like "carnivore" or "meatitarian" to make it clear that they are not just non-vegetarian, but are actively against it. That said even a person who is staunchly anti-vegetarian in their own meals can be very respectful and courteous to those of a different outlook.

What is key is for everyone to realize they can only really control their own actions, and to be respectful to others who make different decisions for themselves. It's fine to respectfully discuss, explain, and even encourage one's own stance; it's not fine to get overly upset and condemn others for choosing something different. Food choice seems to be a very touchy subject, and few are willing to up and change their beliefs and habits overnight.

[Casey & Gina]

Sorry, I don't know why a lot of my posts on whiteblaze have been appearing double lately...

[Kookork]

It most certainly does happen. Most annoying is when it is with a coworker or family member - you go out to a restaurant or otherwise eat together and the other person ends up frustrated that you won't eat meat. Last time my mother visited we went to a Chinese buffet restaurant and she harassed me about it continually. Last time I visited my grandmother she was nearly in tears because I didn't want to eat some things she made with meat (she knew I was vegan and considers herself to be vegetarian, but will do things like making a soup using sausage "just for the flavor", then removes the meat pieces and feeds them to her dog and considers the remaining soup to be "vegetarian"...). People at my workplace randomly give me crap about it all the time, despite me never trying to push my agenda on them or even disclosing my preferences unless asked.

That said, I have seen a bigger presence of dogmatic vegans which I feel do more harm than good. By far the most extreme example of that I have ever seen is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYPAxEcZeuw



I agree, but sometimes it is a self-inflicted term. See above in this thread for an example of someone using the term "meatitarian" for referring to themselves - I think sometimes omnivores choose to use a word like "carnivore" or "meatitarian" to make it clear that they are not just non-vegetarian, but are actively against it. That said even a person who is staunchly anti-vegetarian in their own meals can be very respectful and courteous to those of a different outlook.

What is key is for everyone to realize they can only really control their own actions, and to be respectful to others who make different decisions for themselves. It's fine to respectfully discuss, explain, and even encourage one's own stance; it's not fine to get overly upset and condemn others for choosing something different. Food choice seems to be a very touchy subject, and few are willing to up and change their beliefs and habits overnight.

thank you for your post.

I was the one that called myself meatiterian. This term is not for every person unless they are like me that uses meat in every meal including breakfast. I consume vegtables also. at least 2 tomatos , 5 Garlic cloves ( pickled to avoid bothering others) and one onion per day( sounds smelly huh?). But I have a love affair with meat so I call myself a meatiterian.

I like a society that let people choose what they eat . What difference does it make for me if you or anybody else is vegan? Good for you. I respect your choice and even have a deep respect for your choice but I also expect vegans to respect my choice of diet. If your grandmother is frustrated is because she wants you to enjoy the food that she has tired her best to make it close to your standard . It is sometimes frustrating but nothing more than that.

[Lone Wolf]

This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.

One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.

So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.

yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food

[Lone Wolf]

This is something that I feel people really need further education on. It's usually along the lines of "ow wow do you guys know how much habitat has been destroyed in order to make way for the cultivation of soy?" I'd urge you to do a bit of research on it. A vast majority of harvested crop is used for animal feed. You could feed the world's population many times over on just the grain harvested for livestock.

One thing that really does PISS ME OFF is when carnivores will pick fault with other people who are taking positive steps to make a difference. "OH SO YOU DON'T EAT MEAT BUT YOU STILL EAT DAIRY? SO KILLING AN ANIMAL IS WRONG BUT RAPING IT IS OK?!", "YOU'RE NOT A REAL VEGAN BECAUSE YOU EAT HONEY!" and so on. Just by making a conscious effort to cut down on something that leads to the mistreatment of animals you are taking a positive step so it always baffles me when people criticize other's efforts while simultaneously wiping the bacon grease off their bottom lip. I think a lot of it stems from some self-righteous vegans/veggies getting on their nerves and some of it from their own insecurities about their own diet. I've got no issue with a vegan calling me a dick because I'm only a part-time pescatarian but it's pretty frustrating when a full on carnivore calls you out on it.

So in conclusion, maybe hold off on calling people (who are only making an effort to make the world a better place, mind you) hypocrites before you have walked a mile in their imitation-leather shoes or have done a bit of research on the facts behind your argument.

yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food

[colorado_rob]

I have nothing but respect for Veggies and Vegans, to each his/her own and good for them for sticking to their ethics.

But I am a meat lover and always will be, and furthermore, I have never read one shred of actual convincing evidence that meat eating is bad for your health. I also can't help but notice that we all (well most of us, at least) have four nice sharp "canine" meat-tearing teeth? Not a cow-like set of choppers. I tend to go with what my body is good at and what it craves (hmmmm...... bacon.....)

Not statistically relevant, but in my closer circle of maybe 3-dozen or so family and friends group, there are about 6 veggies and one pure vegan. All of the veggies have some sort of health issue; over weight, underweight, lactose or gluten intolerant (I guess one can argue which came first, the veggie-ness or the ill-health with veggie-ness trying to fix that?). All of my meat-loving pals (and we do partake quite heavily in such) seem to be perfectly healthy. What goes there? Meat and potatoes, just like my parents, have served me very, very well.

But my vegan pal: Wow, does this guy know his stuff. He is 65 years old and in perfect health. His career has been as a nutritionist. but: he is a vegan strictly because of ethics and in fact, he claims that one really has to know his stuff to stay healthy on a vegetarian and vegan diet. Perhaps this is why my veggie friends have some health issues.

He has written a fine book ("1-2-3 Eat!", check it out) which is the very first nutrition book I've read that truly makes sense. It is NOT a book made for veggies/vegans, in fact the thesis of the book is basically this: Our bodies need a certain amount of 41 nutrients (carbs, fats, proteins/amino acids, vitamins, minerals) and only 41. If we lack any of these 41 for a significant period, we will have something go wrong, major or minor. However we get these 41 is fine. Meats contain copious amounts of the 41, hence why they are so healthy. But meats alone aren't enough, enter veggies and fruits and even grains. So, basically, a very healthy 65 year old Vegan, who has studied and practiced nutrition his entire life promotes meat-eating if your ethics are good with it and if you are balanced with plenty of other foods.

Or you could just follow tabloid-esque media hype and psudo-science articles and eschew meats. Thank you, by the way, for doing so. Lower demand for meats brings their price down!

[pauly_j]

I have never read one shred of actual convincing evidence that meat eating is bad for your health.

I think it's widely accepted that eating a lot of red or fatty meats is bad for your health. Emphasis on 'a lot'. Anything in moderation is not going to cause much damage.

yo pauly, i used to work on a farm. i witnessed lotsa small animals get killed by the machines. you veggie folks are hypocrites. animals die in the production of your rabbit food

Congrats on completely missing my point that a majority of crop farming is a direct result of the meat industry. And congrats on proving my point about omnivores criticizing other people for making a positive change.