Best tent style for rain

[Tipi Walter]

The question was what is best for a MULTI-DAY rain. A double wall would have the advantage so long as the wet fly can be packed separately and the inside can be taken down without getting it wet. Which might be easier said then done.

The inside wall of a double wall tent is usually no-see-um netting. While this might be enough to reduce getting wet due to misting during a heavy rain, it will get wet from the misting if it lasts long enough. If you can't keep the floor of the tent dry due to water running under it or being on wet ground, then everything is going to get wet when you pack it anyway.

When you get stuck in a multi-day rain event, everything is going to get wet eventually. I don't think it matters all that much which way you go.

To point one, packing a wet fly separating from the inner. I've never done this mainly because the whole wad is wet by this time---the inner tent canopy is moist with condensation, the tent floor is wet and muddy, and the fly of course is soaked. I just wad up the whole bundle and put in my stuff sack. When I get to camp later in the day I set up fast and shake the inner tent canopy vigorously to dislodge water droplets and then paper towel off the floor to pull out any small puddles. This is necessary for both double wall and single wall tents.

To point two, no tent of mine will ever have unsealable mesh for an inner tent canopy.

And point three, "everything is going to get wet eventually" is just not true. If it were I would've been dead long ago. The tent gets soaked and some hiking clothing, but nothing else. My down parka and down bag and sleeping socks and 80% of my cold weather clothing stays dry no matter what. (Haven't fallen into a cold river yet like those guys routinely do on Alaskan Survival Race show).

I agree that a double walled tent is better in a prolonged rain. Never once got even slightly wet in either of my old Eureka double-walled tents, or in other (no-name) road-camping dome tents with rain fly.

And no one mentions a prolonged COLD rain or a prolonged trip at 0F or below. This is when condensation really can get bad. Thick inner frost on the tent walls. Severe fly "weeping" on the inside of the fly. Don't jostle the fly or you'll get a downpour or ice or water, hence the need for a double wall tent. The inner fly gets 60 or 70% of this moisture, the inner tent canopy gets the other 30%, numbers I can live with.

rafe,

Absolutely, ventilation makes a massive difference.
I'm failing to see how double wall tents have more ventilation than single wall though

Moisture does collect on the outer fly of double wall tents, just as it does for single wall.
Some double wall tents have a mesh inner that does little to stop any droplets that may fall, others have solid panels.

The slope angle of the fabric also makes a massive difference, with something like a mid the angle is very steep so any condensation runs down quickly.
With something like the trailstar in a low pitch the moisture is more likely to fall on you than run down the fly.

Then there is fabric choice, in my experience silnylon tends to "hold on" to moisture a lot more than CF

My point is there are no hard fast rules here, some double wall tents are terrible for condensation, as are some single walled ones.
By the same token some single wall tents have more ventilation than you'd ever need, likewise with some double walled.


But even in the worst case scenario a quick wipe of the inside of the fly with a cloth or towel soon solves the problem.
Something that's not as easy to do with a double wall btw

You makes some good points although I don't see ventilation making a massive difference when there is no ventilation no matter what you do. It all depends on air humidity, wind speed and air temperature. When all these factors go south, no amount of unzipped doors or vents will matter. As in: It's cold and there's high humidity and there's no wind.

A double wall tent obviously has a protective canopy (no mesh please) which allows the saturated fly to drip its moisture either down the wall of the fly or onto the solid canopy---no drips inside, please!

In terrible conditions (think a foot of wet snow with air temps at around 25F---and you're stuck inside the tent for a day), you want the most protection you can get. The fly got saturated long ago, and now the inner canopy is starting to get droplets---but at least I avoided the worst of the fly water with my inner canopy. And it's true, both will get wet if it's bad enough.

Thing is, popular single wall tents nowadays are tiny affairs and the main rule in all this talk is NO PART OF YOUR GEAR or your sleeping bag SHOULD TOUCH ANY PART of the wall of your tent, whether single or double. When a single wall weeps as bad as it does, once you touch it you or your nice nice items get wet. Not good.


I used an Akto tent recently during a warmish April snowstorm and tried it without the solid inner tent. It has 3 good sized vents fore and aft and one on the top arch. I woke up to a wet sauna mess. The inner tent would've kept me 70 or 80% drier. And here's the thing, in a bad storm or butt cold rain with 50mph winds there's no option for venting like an unzipped door to keep you ventilated. You're socked in for the duration and so give us a full report in the morning.

[colorado_rob]

You will stay drier in a double wall tent in a prolonged rainstorm. The main reason is due to inner condensation whereby a single wall will "mist" or drip water droplets onto you and your gear. If conditions are right this will even happen under a tarp.

Plus, when a pounding rain hits your single wall shelter, many campers swear that their tents actually leak or get penetrated by the pounding rain water. This will not happen in a double wall tent, even though the inner tent can and will get moist.

In cold weather with high humidity and/or sleet or snow a single wall shelter begins to fail. Even my double wall Hillebergs have a tough time of it when conditions are terrible.

On one January trip I was in a 153 hour rainstorm at 35F to 40F in the mountains of North Carolina, a sure test of any shelter.

The weight of a shelter is not the most important thing---the most important thing is if will keep you dry in all conditions for however long you're out. "Keeping dry" means none of your gear rubs up against a wet inner wall of the tent, especially the foot of your sleeping bag.

True all of this. I finally bought an UL single wall tent about half way through my AT hike. Sure enough, in very strong prolonged rains it failed to keep me completely dry, quite simply because heavy rain drops on hitting the outside caused a slight misting of the inevitable condensation on the inside of the single wall. My trusty double-wall (my latest is the popular Big Agnes FC2) never failed me under similar heavy rains. Nor has any other DW tent I've owned ever had this problem (probably 15 tents in 50 years of backpacking).

Do I regret buying the single wall? Nope. I stayed dry enough. but not bone dry like in a good double wall. So in fact I do disagree with the last statement: for me the 1.5 pounds saved for my AT hike was worth being slightly wet inside my tent a couple times (and it was only a couple times). I never got wet enough for it to be any problem.

[EVC]

I keep going back to the Hilleburg tents for their incredible strength and 2 wall design but they weigh a TON.

From the replies so far, it seems like the best tent for setting up AND taking down in the rain is something where I can pitch the rain fly first and then attach the inner.

After spending the last 3 days in rain, the ability to pitch the shelter without the inside getting soaked from rainfall has become a key requirement for my next tent.

I thought the single wall would have won this contest but it seems condensation on the inside along with having to pack its wet parts along with the dry counters the original benefit.

With my current 2 wall, I have one bag for the fly and a separate bag for the inner. That was working as long as I was careful not to pitch the inner while it was raining heavy.


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[Tipi Walter]

True all of this. I finally bought an UL single wall tent about half way through my AT hike. Sure enough, in very strong prolonged rains it failed to keep me completely dry, quite simply because heavy rain drops on hitting the outside caused a slight misting of the inevitable condensation on the inside of the single wall. My trusty double-wall (my latest is the popular Big Agnes FC2) never failed me under similar heavy rains. Nor has any other DW tent I've owned ever had this problem (probably 15 tents in 50 years of backpacking).

Do I regret buying the single wall? Nope. I stayed dry enough. but not bone dry like in a good double wall. So in fact I do disagree with the last statement: for me the 1.5 pounds saved for my AT hike was worth being slightly wet inside my tent a couple times (and it was only a couple times). I never got wet enough for it to be any problem.

To your first point of "misting"---Alot of single wall tent users swear this misting is actual rain water forcing itself thru the fly fabric, and I tend to agree. It's a big discussion on the TarpTent forums. I notice on my super duper Hilleberg Kerlon 1800 fly that in a pounding rain---we're talking buckets of rain hitting the tent like a hail attack---I get small water droplets coming inside. I think the rain is forcing itself thru the hydrostatic head of the fabric. No big deal as I only feel it in the vestibule and it never soaks the inner canopy.

To your last point: Did you ever hit a long stretch of terrible weather (like in January) in your single wall and had to keep using it without any breaks? I'd be interested in your feedback.

[colorado_rob]

To your first point of "misting"---Alot of single wall tent users swear this misting is actual rain water forcing itself thru the fly fabric, and I tend to agree. It's a big discussion on the TarpTent forums. I notice on my super duper Hilleberg Kerlon 1800 fly that in a pounding rain---we're talking buckets of rain hitting the tent like a hail attack---I get small water droplets coming inside. I think the rain is forcing itself thru the hydrostatic head of the fabric. No big deal as I only feel it in the vestibule and it never soaks the inner canopy.

To your last point: Did you ever hit a long stretch of terrible weather (like in January) in your single wall and had to keep using it without any breaks? I'd be interested in your feedback.

Really hard to tell if it's coming through or simply shaking off a few milligrams of condensation... If I make a bucket out of the tent fabric it seems waterproof under that head, but a large falling droplet would generate more pressure, I would suppose.

To your last question, and it is very appropriate to this discussion: I would definitely NOT rely on a single wall tent (now) for a long, extended outing with no opportunities for a break. But on the AT, at least, say, late March through early October, with drying out/warming up opportunities (towns, road crossings) only a day or two away, I would risk getting slightly wet a time or two for the big weight savings. My Zpacks Hexamid solo+, including cords and ground sheet (polycro) weighs in at 16.0 ounces. Along the AT this works great; if many days of rain are in store, one can always switch to using shelters for a couple nights.

In January, no way no matter what, I would be using my doulble-wall 3+ season or 4 season tents in winter or winter-possible conditions. Well, I take it back: I do own a Bibler Eldorado single-wall, "todd-tek" fabric, that has served me well on many high/cold/snowy conditions, like -25F at 18000 feet in 50+ MPH winds. But this is a completely different type of single wall fabric, and fairly heavy, 5 pounds for a 28 sq. ft. tent. Plus, where/when it gets used, there is no way water can exist in a liquid form....

BTW: I, too, love those Hilliberg tents, I keep almost buying one, but I wind up just using one of my MHW Trango's (we have the T3 and T4), or the Bibler (when solo) just because they have always worked perfectly. I did borrow a Hilliberg once, great tents. I think it was a Namaji 3, something like that.

[rafe]

My Eureka Solitaire is a tiny one-man tent with a mesh top and a rainfly above that. I can't tell you how many rainstorms and ice-storms I slept through in that tent, but I can tell you I slept soundly every time, and after the first or second such storm, never worried about it again. I used that tent from 1989 to 2005 and hiked about 2/3 of the AT with it.

Packing up a wet tent is a PITA regardless of whether it's single walled or double-walled. My Tarptent is roomy enough to hold my pack. The tent, in its stuff sack, rides outside the pack when I hike. So, no problem: get dressed for the rain, stuff the pack, jump outside, take the tent down, roll it up, and go. Taking down and rolling up the Rainbow takes about two minutes. Setting it up takes about as long.

[cbr6fs]

Double wall trap a layer of warmer air between the inner and outer, which reduces the internal condensation on the fly,

Sorry but i completely disagree, where does this warmer air come from?
How can a thin silnylon type material insulated this warmth?

Condensation forms because the outer surface of the fabric is colder than the inner surface IF what you say is true then it'd cause more condensation not less

as well as the inner protects from some misting.

Again this depends on the tent, i've had misting on double wall tents and no misting on single wall tents in similar conditions.
As i say there is no white or black here, a lot depends on the tents design, use and materials

[cbr6fs]

You makes some good points although I don't see ventilation making a massive difference when there is no ventilation no matter what you do. It all depends on air humidity, wind speed and air temperature. When all these factors go south, no amount of unzipped doors or vents will matter. As in: It's cold and there's high humidity and there's no wind.

I don't see how you can have no ventilation
Even if you found some way of vacuum sealing your tent to the ground, most tents have vents built in.

Then there are the doors.
Personally i prefer to sleep with the doors open if possible, even if it's raining as long as there is no wind i can have both sides of my Duplex open without getting wet.

A double wall tent obviously has a protective canopy (no mesh please) which allows the saturated fly to drip its moisture either down the wall of the fly or onto the solid canopy---no drips inside, please!

Again though this depends on the tent.
Like i said above i prefer to sleep with the doors open, my thinking is that because i don't get out much these days i want to wake up to a great view, plus i enjoy opening my eyes during the night and seeing the view.
So for me if the conditions were bad to NEED a solid inner then i just wouldn't bother

In terrible conditions (think a foot of wet snow with air temps at around 25F---and you're stuck inside the tent for a day), you want the most protection you can get. The fly got saturated long ago, and now the inner canopy is starting to get droplets---but at least I avoided the worst of the fly water with my inner canopy. And it's true, both will get wet if it's bad enough.

How often does this happen to most hikers of here?

I can see what you mean, but what's the point of carry a 4kg tent when the hiker isn't going to see the conditions you describe?

Thing is, popular single wall tents nowadays are tiny affairs and the main rule in all this talk is NO PART OF YOUR GEAR or your sleeping bag SHOULD TOUCH ANY PART of the wall of your tent, whether single or double. When a single wall weeps as bad as it does, once you touch it you or your nice nice items get wet. Not good.

You are using any possible negative without adding the positives into the equation with this though

How about the fact that most single skin tents are a LOT bigger internally than their double skin comparisons?
How about double skin tents that use silnylon floors, that have the surface friction something like trying to moonwalk on a bouncy castle when you're covered with baby oil?

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you've NEVER had a damp sleeping bag in a double wall tent because the inner slid or the outer sagged during the night and your sleeping bag touched it?

I used an Akto tent recently during a warmish April snowstorm and tried it without the solid inner tent. It has 3 good sized vents fore and aft and one on the top arch. I woke up to a wet sauna mess. The inner tent would've kept me 70 or 80% drier. And here's the thing, in a bad storm or butt cold rain with 50mph winds there's no option for venting like an unzipped door to keep you ventilated. You're socked in for the duration and so give us a full report in the morning.

Yet most alpine 4 season tents used on Everest attempts are single skin

[colorado_rob]

Yet most alpine 4 season tents used on Everest attempts are single skin

Untrue. Very few are. Where do you get your information....

[Casey & Gina]

If your sleeping bag outer is made of waterproof breathable fabric (Pertex Shield), does it matter if it touches a surface with condensation?

[Tipi Walter]

How often does this happen to most hikers of here?

I can see what you mean, but what's the point of carry a 4kg tent when the hiker isn't going to see the conditions you describe?



How about the fact that most single skin tents are a LOT bigger internally than their double skin comparisons?

Can you honestly put your hand on your heart and say that you've NEVER had a damp sleeping bag in a double wall tent because the inner slid or the outer sagged during the night and your sleeping bag touched it?



Yet most alpine 4 season tents used on Everest attempts are single skin

I'll let Colorado Rob handle your last point; suffice to say I've seen many pics of Everest basecamps and pics of mountaineering tents and most of them are stout double wall affairs in the North Face Mountain/Mt Hardwear Trango style. Please scroll thru these pics and show me the single wall tents in an Everest basecamp.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mt+e...1yZwCn#imgrc=_

See below for further pics.

But to point 1: Hikers here on Whiteblaze face these conditions all the time, and suffer because of it. Just do a check on those preparing to thruhike the AT in winter and you'll see alot of town bails and alot of laundry mat visits. Many rely on the AT shelter box system so they won't have to set up camp or consistently rely on their small shelters.

Point 2: Single wall tents are A LOT BIGGER than double walls?? This just doesn't ring true as current backpackers are glomming onto ridiculously small single wall tents like the Gatewood Cape or other Six Moon Designs---(and by single wall I mean tents with a full mesh inner--called a hybrid double wall)---

http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/tents.html

Or check out some of the ZPacks solo tents---

http://www.zpacks.com/shelters.shtml

To your last point of getting a moist bag shell because my bag touched the wet inner canopy---Yes, this has happened numerous times on short stubby Hilleberg tents like the Nammatj and the Staika (happens with the Nallo and the Allak and the Soulo and the Akto and many others too)---It's the main reason I went with the vertical head and foot walls of the Keron. As noted, no part of your sleeping bag should touch the tent wall, whether single wall or double.

And btw, here are some random googled pics from Mt Everest and the South Col camps---You can't camp much higher than this---See
https://www.google.com/search?q=ever...3TbAOH#imgrc=_

Most of the tents are not single wall. Another good example---
https://www.adventurepeaks.com/shop/...nd-naya-kanga/

Most of these guys have learned the hard way and wouldn't be carrying heavier gear if it didn't work.

[Dogwood]

I'm trying to decide between a single-wall or a double-wall style tent. I'm wondering which, if either, is easier to keep dry during a multi-day hike in rain. I've never used a single-wall tent. ...

...A double wall would have the advantage so long as the wet fly can be packed separately and the inside can be taken down without getting it wet. Which might be easier said then done.

...If you can't keep the floor of the tent dry due to water running under it or being on wet ground, then everything is going to get wet when you pack it anyway.

When you get stuck in a multi-day rain event, everything is going to get wet eventually. I don't think it matters all that much which way you go.

From the way the OP posed his question, what I got, was him asking which style tent, two wall or single wall was easier to keep dry in a multi day hike in rain? If it's raining all day including when setting up or breaking down, both styles, or tent some components will get wet. Maybe I misinterpreted Slo-go-en's statement some but I took when he referred to "everything" he was talking about everything regarding the tent. Now, how they function can be different.

[colorado_rob]

I'll let Colorado Rob handle your last point; suffice to say I've seen many pics of Everest basecamps and pics of mountaineering tents and most of them are stout double wall affairs in the North Face Mountain/Mt Hardwear Trango style.

Yep, MHW trangos and TNF VE's znc Mtn's still dominate on big high mountains, as you say, very stout double-wall tents. There are two single wall tents (maybe more) that are used, the old tried-and-true Bibler's (now owned by Black Diamond) and the MHW EV series (very small tents for perching up very high for fast-light experidions). But the Trango's and North Face VE's tend to dominate on big mountains, though on my recent trips up high we did see a good percentage of Hilleberg's.

[martinb]

I've gotten wet in all of my single wall tents during multi-day rain trips. Most of them suffer from poor ventilation, when closed, and sagging issues no matter how taught-pitched, initially. It's the trade off one makes for less weight. I got weary of this trade off and now use a Hilleberg Allak. It's been bulletproof in days-of-rain type hikes in the East. Ventilation is superb and I rarely experience condensation except during very cold temps (teens).

Unlike almost all single wall tents the Allak has two huge half moon vents, at it's apex, covered by an umbrella fly. As we know, heat rises and during times of little to no wind, if trapped heat can't escape it leads to additional condensation. So, while that single wall might ventilate well with the doors open and wind blowing, it's going to be not-so-good with everything closed up and no wind (and or with rain/cooler temps). Additionally, since the vestibule doors are double zipped I can open the top of the doors for even more ventilation.

This is a laying down view of one side of the vents

[Tipi Walter]

I've gotten wet in all of my single wall tents during multi-day rain trips. Most of them suffer from poor ventilation, when closed, and sagging issues no matter how taught-pitched, initially. It's the trade off one makes for less weight. I got weary of this trade off and now use a Hilleberg Allak. It's been bulletproof in days-of-rain type hikes in the East. Ventilation is superb and I rarely experience condensation except during very cold temps (teens).

Unlike almost all single wall tents the Allak has two huge half moon vents, at it's apex, covered by an umbrella fly. As we know, heat rises and during times of little to no wind, if trapped heat can't escape it leads to additional condensation. So, while that single wall might ventilate well with the doors open and wind blowing, it's going to be not-so-good with everything closed up and no wind (and or with rain/cooler temps). Additionally, since the vestibule doors are double zipped I can open the top of the doors for even more ventilation.

This is a laying down view of one side of the vents

Another satisfied customer. I'm no salesman for Hilleberg and I have never worked for the company but I like your post. A buddy of mine got into the Allak and I took a few pics of his camp atop an open NC bald---


Hoppin John packing up by his red Allak.

[martinb]

Walter, Looks like a familar spot. The Bob? I think I stayed in this very same camp this past June when I was up there.



Big time storm that night too. Shook the Allak pretty good but stayed completely dry.

[Casey & Gina]

I have been drooling over Hilleberg tents and contemplating a purchase for a while, but for some reason was gravitating towards the tunnel style models and was not really looking at the domes. (Tipi, I still have to read that other thread on Hillebergs - haven't forgotten just been busy!). Looking at the Allak lead me quickly to it's black label counterpart, the Staika, at a little over a pound heavier, and am really liking the way it looks on paper. It is perhaps the only 2-person Hilleberg that looks like it would accommodate a 50x77" sleeping surface comfortably, the rectangular inner floor leaving 6" extra space at the head and toe, plus a couple extra inches on either side. Plus the walls are pretty vertical so more of that footprint size is usable space. And like all Hillebergs, has the benefit of being able to mess with the inner tent while dry underneath of the outer tent. Looks like a very compelling option that I will have to give serious consideration to!

[Tipi Walter]

Walter, Looks like a familar spot. The Bob? I think I stayed in this very same camp this past June when I was up there.



Big time storm that night too. Shook the Allak pretty good but stayed completely dry.

You've got a perceptive eye. Yes, we had FOUR Hillebergs on the Bob for that trip--Two Allaks, an Akto and a Staika. See the trip here---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backp...n-on/i-MdBZGJ5

I have been drooling over Hilleberg tents and contemplating a purchase for a while, but for some reason was gravitating towards the tunnel style models and was not really looking at the domes. (Tipi, I still have to read that other thread on Hillebergs - haven't forgotten just been busy!). Looking at the Allak lead me quickly to it's black label counterpart, the Staika, at a little over a pound heavier, and am really liking the way it looks on paper. It is perhaps the only 2-person Hilleberg that looks like it would accommodate a 50x77" sleeping surface comfortably, the rectangular inner floor leaving 6" extra space at the head and toe, plus a couple extra inches on either side. Plus the walls are pretty vertical so more of that footprint size is usable space. And like all Hillebergs, has the benefit of being able to mess with the inner tent while dry underneath of the outer tent. Looks like a very compelling option that I will have to give serious consideration to!

I have hundreds of nights in the Staika and it's a sweet little tent (or not so little to the ULers)---and it's solid and truly free standing and beefy and strong.


This pretty much shows the Staika in action at -10F on a ridgetop around 5,000 feet in December 2006. A lot of room for a solo backpacker and great vesti space for cooking and gear. The ONLY flaw in the design is the short stubbiness and the angled foot end of the yellow inner tent. In the right conditions and with the right down sleeping bag fully lofted atop a 2 or 3 inch pad the footbox of your bag will touch the possibly wet inner tent fabric.

[1234]

Hmmmm what works best? What does it matter you are soaked and when you get into your tent it will be wet on the inside. What to do with wet rain gear? what to do with wet cloths? How to maintain dryness in steady rain conditions? I have cuben fiber tarp and it does not leak or mist, it does however condensate even without sides. The bigger the better it is to separate wet from dry. After 3 days in a drizzle rain foggy hiking, everything gets wet. If it is cold you will be cold. Only solution, dry day and a fire to dry everything out, or get to town. Sunny days sorta works if you have a good breeze and it is warm. AT conditions in March April, are drizzle rain foggy impossible to stay dry weather conditions. If you get into your tent prior to rain it will be dry for that night. Most all tents. Next day is a different story. Thin lightweight tents wet out more easily like big Agnes fly creek, their steep sides help them stay dry in a down pour but if you are wet and touch the sides then the tent is wet. Most AT hikers camp near shelters where the tent spots are like bath tubes, your light weight tents will work for a month or so sitting in a puddle by the fiber loses it silicone and starts leaking. Best bet it to set up on slight hills on leaves, less mud and dirt all over the tent and no puddle to worry about. I perfer the gravel filled tent pads like in Maryland but few exist elsewhere. No splatter and no dirt and no puddles and flat. So I say all tents will perform fine if care is taken in setup, but all will fail during days of rain, as yourself will wet the inside.

[Tipi Walter]

Walter, Looks like a familar spot. The Bob? I think I stayed in this very same camp this past June when I was up there.



Big time storm that night too. Shook the Allak pretty good but stayed completely dry.

Let's go back to this pic. There's a neat about Hillebergs when the fecal matter hits the Big Floor Fan---the wonderful guylines and cord tensioners. Love 'em. There always there when you need them, and they are strong and have two attachment points on the tent for one peg. The Allak and Staika really can get cinched down when these guylines are set. Bombproof? Pretty much.


I was in a hell storm on Haw Knob at 5,500 feet in December 2008 and by morning I was ready to get the heck off this mountain as an all-night wind blew my little tent apart but it hung in there after some tremendous slaps, squirts, gonad slams, eyeball pinches, medulla spankings, forehead whaps, raccoon squeals, testicular mishaps and beaver howlings. Yes, even with the guylines taut the thing slammed back and forth and wanted to get flat but nothing broke, no poles bent, and I didn't even have to put big rocks on top of all the stakes. Amen, pass the gu gels and larabars.