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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewguy View Post
    The super tioga is what I was thinking, for some reason I thought you were selling it.
    Nah, I do have a 50th Anniversary pack that I'd like to sell though. Believe it or not the Super Tioga is the smallest of 3 Kelty packs I have, haha:

    IMG_0782.jpg

  2. #22
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    If your'e going in summer, wouldn't be a DIY trailer a solution?
    Of course a single wheeler, for the narrow trails you will walk.
    Saw a slideshow of Christian Stangl's Atacama trip, he started building his trailer by dismanteling the wheels from his MTB.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    If your'e going in summer, wouldn't be a DIY trailer a solution?
    Of course a single wheeler, for the narrow trails you will walk.
    Saw a slideshow of Christian Stangl's Atacama trip, he started building his trailer by dismanteling the wheels from his MTB.
    I don't think anything wheeled would work on the rocky AT, and elevation changes would be a bear.

  4. #24
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    If a MTB can do it a Trailer will work.
    But sure you know the trail by own experience, while I'm just reading about it.
    Also, a trailer is a question of personal preference - you may love it, or hate it.
    We have a famous local guy here who walked around the world for about two-three years, who is actually hiking for a living now (giving classes and guided tours), and when he once tried out a buggy he never started to love this thing, he skipped it and preferred carrying any, even brutal heavy, load on his back over this buggy thing.
    But still he gained lots of experience on this, and recommends a specific product: http://www.carrix.ch/harcarre.html

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    But still he gained lots of experience on this, and recommends a specific product: http://www.carrix.ch/harcarre.html
    That actually looks pretty cool! The website is lacking though, without any idea of pricing or availability.

  6. #26
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    Wheeled mechanical devices are not allowed on NPS trails. You can be ticketed. A skid instead of a wheel would be ok...but probably not very practical on many portions of the AT.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDogg View Post
    Wheeled mechanical devices are not allowed on NPS trails. You can be ticketed. A skid instead of a wheel would be ok...but probably not very practical on many portions of the AT.
    Thanks for confirming - I was thinking that was the case but wasn't sure where the line was drawn. It would be an interesting contraption for other environments though.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDogg View Post
    Wheeled mechanical devices are not allowed on NPS trails...
    I well understand and appreciate this rule.

    What kind of load carrying animals are allowed on the trail?
    Remember Nick Vanier + family doing an over-the-winter trip with horses?
    http://nicolasvanier.com/portfolio/lenfant-des-neiges/

  9. #29
    Registered User KDogg's Avatar
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    Seems like you are out of luck with pack animals too...with a few miles of exception.

    http://appalachiantrail.org/docs/tra...5.pdf?sfvrsn=2

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    Then I end up repeating myself:
    Set up goals in means of time (like, "stay out on the trail for 14 days") instead of a fixed aim (like, hike from A to B within a given timeframe).

  11. #31
    Peakbagger Extraordinaire The Solemates's Avatar
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    It isnt real often we go backpacking as a family of 5, but we do it a few times a year. Usually its me and the 1 or 2 older kids or me by myself. When we go with all 3 kids though I carry gear for everyone....thats right - 5 people. My pack usually weighs 70 lbf or so. My wife carries a child carrier that my youngest (sometimes) rides in. She's 2 so she rides a while, walks a while, etc. The only gear strapped to the child carrier is 1 sleeping bag. We hike less than 3-4 miles and we dont do much snow camping.

    front carriers are for babies, and work great....but they do not do well once the child approaches a few months old.
    The only thing better than mountains, is mountains where you haven't been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Solemates View Post
    front carriers are for babies, and work great....but they do not do well once the child approaches a few months old.
    I think it actually depends a lot on the brand/model/design. My wife carries our son all the time for probably several hours each day, on both her front and back using the same soft structured carriers. She uses the following products:
    * Boba 4G
    * Lillebaby Original
    * Obimama Custom Mei Tai

    All of these work great with our 25lb 14-month-old - the first two use Buckles to put on while the latter uses straps that you can tie in various manners. Carriers such as the Baby Björn are not nearly as comfortable and really don't work beyond a few months old.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey & Gina View Post
    ...the three of us share a single sleeping system of two large pads contained in a groundsheet and zips to our quilt (Feathered Friends Condor) and hoods. We can get another Condor with a higher temperature rating to lighten up the load and reduce bulk, while being compatible with the proven system we already use. Probably don't need to carry the hoods outside of winter either - hats and balaclavas may be sufficient.
    Just to follow this up, I weighed all the components the other night with a gram scale.

    Feathered Friends custom Condor groundsheet - 490g
    Feathered Friends custom Condor 0 - 1824g
    Feathered Friends custom Condor Hoods - 175g each = 350g
    Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil Compression Dry Sack L = 96g

    Total: 2664g. Add in another 96g for a waterproof compression sack and you're just over 6lbs for everything needed for 3 people to stay warm with plenty of room for comfort down to a bit below 0 (tested down to 10 degrees), which isn't bad. A warmer weather bag and leaving the hoods behind would lighten the load up and reduce bulk considerably.

    IMG_0794.jpg

  14. #34

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    You need these.



    Or one of these.



    Or some of these.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey & Gina View Post
    Just to follow this up, I weighed all the components the other night with a gram scale.

    Feathered Friends custom Condor groundsheet - 490g
    Feathered Friends custom Condor 0 - 1824g
    Feathered Friends custom Condor Hoods - 175g each = 350g
    Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil Compression Dry Sack L = 96g

    Total: 2664g. Add in another 96g for a waterproof compression sack and you're just over 6lbs for everything needed for 3 people to stay warm with plenty of room for comfort down to a bit below 0 (tested down to 10 degrees), which isn't bad. A warmer weather bag and leaving the hoods behind would lighten the load up and reduce bulk considerably.

    IMG_0794.jpg
    That isn't bad at all. 6 pounds for the sleeping, I think you said 10 pounds for the tent, another 6 for a good size backpack is only 22lbs, what makes up the other 130 pounds you are taking?

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey & Gina View Post
    I backpack with my wife, and our 14-month-old son. This means she carries him in a (8lb heavy) backpack carrier, whose cargo room holds his necessities (diapers, clothing, etc.), while I end up carrying all the gear for two adults, along with food. We both have water bladders.

    Well, with winter backpacking necessitating more and heavier gear, my pack size and weight have grown to epic proportions. I am really looking forward two lightening my load in the spring, and it got me wondering just how far we can shave things down.

    Be warned, the following recent pictures of our packs may cause blindness to gram weanies:

    Attachment 33607 Attachment 33606

    Combined weight we carried for our last trip? 130lbs! Haha, well anyways...let's move along. When we're not planning for winter, I think there's some ways we can lighten up considerably:
    * No snowshoes or microspikes, lighter footwear
    * No midlayer clothing
    * 3-season tent
    * Thinner/lighter sleeping quilt
    * Only one set of CCF pads, or ditch them entirely in favor of air mattresses (while I don't like the idea of air mattress failure, it's less critical if it happens outside of winter cold, and worst case we can squeeze together onto one temporarily)
    * Less cookware, and less comfort items in general that we don't really need if focused on hiking miles over all else

    Of course, we are stuck with a 25-30lb child to carry. Our Deuter Kid Comfort 3 weighs 7lb 11oz, and it doesn't seem there are really any lighter options on the market without sacrificing cargo capacity or something else important (other carriers in the same class include the Osprey Poco Premium and Kelty Pathfinder 3.0). Another option is to use a soft structured carrier like an Ergobaby on the front, and a backpack on the back. This doesn't really seem to work out so well in practice though, since the straps conflict and the two things don't really work together well. Just for kicks, last night we packed full a Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil day pack and put that on in conjunction with the lightest structured carrier we could find, the Bitybean Tomato:

    Attachment 33609 Attachment 33610

    Obviously this isn't backpacking-worthy gear, but it was an interesting experiment as it was surprising what all we could cram into the 20L pack. Stuffed in there is a tent that will fit us, 12 tent pegs; our baselayers, hats, jackets, and extra socks; a wood stove, cookware and spoons; 2 headlamps; our hygiene kit; rain gear; gear repair supplies, and some other necessities. The only notable exception was a sleeping quilt, and of course food, water, and baby supplies. It was enlightening to see just how small our essentials could pack up. If we replaced our CCF pads with XLites to reduce bulk, and got a lighter sleeping bag for 3-season use, I think fitting everything into twice the space may be feasible. Of course, we'd need a more sturdy pack but if we didn't need to carry the baby in it, it could be a 5 pounds lighter than the carrier. I previously had tried out a Vargo Ti-Arc pack, which seemed nice for a 30lb load, the ZPacks Arc Haul is another option that advertises ability to carry an extra 10lbs.

    The main problems I see with carrying the baby in the front are:
    * Conflicts between the backpack and the carrier, since they are not made to work together or be worn simultaneously
    * No ventilation between the person carrying the baby and the baby, making for some sweaty hot times
    * Possibly difficult to navigate on the trail with impaired visibility of where you are going to step

    For the first, I wonder if a design concept similar to an Aarn pack would work. Not sure how to deal with the second or third problems.

    But if something were possible, we could stand to reduce our overall weight by rather a lot, and when we have a second baby to carry and each have to carry one, this sort of arrangement seems preferable to two heavily-laden and overpacked frame backpack child carriers. Curious to hear any comments or suggestions - I'm happy to entertain any ideas!
    Casey-
    There are two key principals to UL that help you (and me) a ton here- weight AND volume. You will need to look at both a bit harder overall.

    I think you need to get Gina's rig sorted out, then you can fall back on whatever hero Dad sized pack you need from there...
    At the end of the day, you having a high volume external frame you can "dump" weight into when needed will be worth the extra pound of pack. There will be times you'll just have extra crap so some room to spare there makes sense. Most any heavy hauler will do, the real trick is sorting your wife out first, and your overall setup so not such a large amount dumps on you. While short bits or 10 mile days are no biggie, the wear and tear on both of you will likely lead to a hike ending in injury.

    If the AT is the goal... you did strike on number 1 reason to rule out a front pack- visibility. And as it's going to be difficult if not impossible to carry a 25lb and growing little one I'd strike the idea. Looking at the pics you also have a length problem already- the little fella is already long and getting longer. And barring surgery I doubt your wife is getting taller. Also; nap time is travel time for me and it's harder for a toddler to sock out in the front carrier either way. You also covered the heat issue for mom and kiddo- which if you want to do a thru is going to lead to pack sores and other skin issues for both of them.

    So...
    I'm not sure why you are stuck on the Deuter? http://www.rei.com/product/864894/de...-child-carrier
    While it lists 18L, that's a tough shape to pack and while kiddo stuff is easy to stuff in odd spots, it's not as versatile as the poco plus.
    http://www.rei.com/product/828439/os...-child-carrier

    If you look at them a bit more there are a few bigger things that make the difference besides the 23L listed capacity.
    -The poco's lower compartment is integrated into the kickstand, which is where some of the extra volume comes in. It's also an easier area to pack as well.
    -This also lets you lash on a stuff sack vertically with lightweight gear without interfering with the kickstand itself- can't do that on the Dueter as well. The poco plus has the lash points for the silly daypack that gets added on to the premium model.
    -Kiddo sits closer to the pack, the deuter has a more laid back rig- which is good for shorter trips but not so good for an allday carrier as the load pulls back all the time.
    -The second heaviest thing- a water bladder... on the poco it actually fits between the kiddo and the frame. Again- load is close to the body and the cold spring water frequently found on the AT helps cool you both as a bonus.
    -It's a pound lighter (stock), but you can pull the sunshade, drool pad, and a few other things from it to reduce the load. An umbrella is a better choice with the kiddo.
    -Probably personal choice to an extent- but overall I think the osprey has a better suspension on top of the better design.

    On the odds and ends pockets- they are about even...

    I am still using mine with my 5 year old who is a good 35 pounds and 3' tall. I can use it for weekends with just him and I by packing the bulky sleeping gear into a tube and carrying it strapped vertically on the back. Because of the bottom shape- heavy stuff like food, cook gear, clothes, etc can go into the bottom. All in kid and all I'm probably around 60lbs for a weekend shoulder season trip. 2man tent in there as well.

    Sleep gear-
    That said... Two large Neo-airs= 2lbs. An EE double bag about 20/30* depending on size would put you about 2lbs there. Few ounces for pad kit is probably a good idea.
    http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/accomplice/

    With the massive height difference between you all- you might even get away with an extra wide, extra tall Convert for under 2lbs at 20*
    http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/convert/

    You could make those swaps and drop from 6lbs to 4lbs or so...
    The biggest thing though would be a massive volume drop, and perhaps adding in a scrap or two of foam pad for a sit pad or break spot for the boy.
    I can carry two of my 25* primaloft quilts, a large neo-air, and a small neo-air in a 7"x24" stuff sack, which I can carry under the kickstand or along the back of the poco as mentioned.

    Shelter-
    by far the lightest weight to space to volume shelter is going to be a mid.
    http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com...roducts_id=130
    http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/triplex.shtml

    Looks like you are both stick swinging ninnies (trekking pole users)... so might as well take advantage.

    That said- http://www.rei.com/product/880779/bi...-3-mtnglo-tent
    I use the 2 man version of this... Besides the weight, the volume is quite small for what it is... It's not a bomber 4 season shelter, the fabric is fairly lightweight, but it is adequate.

    With a kiddo it's nice having a freestanding tent... You won't always be able to find that perfect spot to stake out or deal with a trekking pole shelter.
    A freestanding tent frees you up too from having to stop earlier than you might like for fear of finding that perfect spot, and it also pitches quick when that emergency rain storm pops up or the nap monster attacks mom and dad too. Being able to throw down where and when you like is nice.

    I would recommend a ground sheet for this tent for a long hike.
    BTW- while the "glow" isn't that bright, it is pretty handy at night time for setting everything up, or for mom and dad not to blast awake kiddo with a headlamp. If nothing else- at about a 2 ounce difference it is lighter than most lights would be, and you can always leave the battery pack at home to save the weight.

    The other advantage of a freestanding (or at least a shelter with separate fly) is that you can keep the fly handy for a quick rain shelter /tarp rig. The copper spur fly in particular can be pitched with the spreader pole in it, which makes for a nice quick tarp that gives good coverage.

    https://www.campmor.com/c/euroschirm...sfree-umbrella
    I have this for a few reasons-
    big enough to cover me and kiddo.
    comes with the hands free kit.
    It is an extra long, adjustable length handle.
    UPF protection.

    But coupled with your rain fly from the shelter- if you get in a real nasty moment (or just want a dry place to change a diaper)
    It is big enough to make a small bivy shelter. Toss it on the ground, throw the fly over it, and Gina and your son can escape driving rain or hail while you get the shelter up.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewguy View Post
    That isn't bad at all. 6 pounds for the sleeping, I think you said 10 pounds for the tent, another 6 for a good size backpack is only 22lbs, what makes up the other 130 pounds you are taking?
    It was 130 between both of us; my share was 75lbs. My pack was 6.25lbs, her carrier was closer to 8. We had two pairs of MSR snowshoes, 2 pairs of microspikes, 4 large CCF pads, 3L water each, cookware, more food than needed (intentional as a safety precaution and because we were going out to camp rather than cover distance), rain gear, down jackets, umbrellas (which didn't get used but do when it rains), gloves, overmitts, a folding saw, headlamps, an iPod, GPS and power bank, a repair kit and first aid kit.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Bill View Post
    I think you need to get Gina's rig sorted out, then you can fall back on whatever hero Dad sized pack you need from there...
    As mentioned initially, my bigger concern is for when we have TWO children needing carried, at which point I will presumably need a backpack carrier as well. So we will have to figure out how to cram all of our gear into a pretty limited space.

    which if you want to do a thru is going to lead to pack sores and other skin issues for both of them.
    At this point I'm doubtful we'll be able to do a thru in the near future, but we do want to do a LASH at least.

    I'm not sure why you are stuck on the Deuter? http://www.rei.com/product/864894/de...-child-carrier
    While it lists 18L, that's a tough shape to pack and while kiddo stuff is easy to stuff in odd spots, it's not as versatile as the poco plus.
    Because we've tried the Osprey offerings, and the Deuter is, in our opinions, more comfortable, better designed, and has worked out well so far. We've taken several trips back to the store where I've urged her to try out the Osprey (particularly the Premium) again as it does indeed have a higher cargo volume, but she just doesn't like it as much, and I can't say I do either. To be fair, we haven't taken one out on an actual hike, only tried them in the store. I did just recently purchase a used Kelty Expedition, which boasts a significantly larger cargo capacity than the Osprey, should be arriving today so will report back on how that works out.

    -Kiddo sits closer to the pack, the deuter has a more laid back rig- which is good for shorter trips but not so good for an allday carrier as the load pulls back all the time.
    On both, that's a matter of adjustment, which I recall being easier to make on the Deuter actually.

    -The second heaviest thing- a water bladder... on the poco it actually fits between the kiddo and the frame. Again- load is close to the body and the cold spring water frequently found on the AT helps cool you both as a bonus.
    Same on the Deuter.

    -It's a pound lighter (stock), but you can pull the sunshade, drool pad, and a few other things from it to reduce the load. An umbrella is a better choice with the kiddo.
    We use umbrellas, but I wouldn't rely solely on it - a full rain cover is also a necessity in my opinion.

    That said... Two large Neo-airs= 2lbs. An EE double bag about 20/30* depending on size would put you about 2lbs there. Few ounces for pad kit is probably a good idea.
    ...
    You could make those swaps and drop from 6lbs to 4lbs or so...
    We will probably switch to NeoAirs or some other light inflatable pads for non-winter use, to reduce bulk. I could switch out the custom Condor for a 30-degree version to save 20oz and maintain compatibility with our existing setup. Leave the hoods behind as well and we've shaved 2 pounds without sacrificing anything but warmth not needed in the warmer seasons. We could go for a tapered double bag (the Feathered Friends Penguin is similar to the EE Accomplice, though heavier) to shave more weight but then we'd also need to switch to tapered regular-width sleeping pads and would be pretty crowded and uncomfortable with the baby in there. With our current 50" wide arrangement, we could fit a second child, at least until one grows up more.

    I guess the EE's save weight by using different fabrics? Do you find them to be durable enough? I hadn't even heard of or looked at them before, but the low weights sure do sound nice!

    The biggest thing though would be a massive volume drop, and perhaps adding in a scrap or two of foam pad for a sit pad or break spot for the boy.
    I can carry two of my 25* primaloft quilts, a large neo-air, and a small neo-air in a 7"x24" stuff sack, which I can carry under the kickstand or along the back of the poco as mentioned.
    Our current sack is 9"x20" and compresses down further. It fits into the sleeping bag compartment on my pack pretty easily and the I usually rotate it and loosen the straps up so that it's not compressed quite so much and fills up the compartment better. It doesn't have our pads in it of course but it does have the extra winter bulk of extra down and the hoods. I think our biggest bulk problem is simply the pads

    [ouote]by far the lightest weight to space to volume shelter is going to be a mid.
    http://www.mountainlaureldesigns.com...roducts_id=130
    http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/triplex.shtml

    Looks like you are both stick swinging ninnies (trekking pole users)... so might as well take advantage.

    That said- http://www.rei.com/product/880779/bi...-3-mtnglo-tent
    I use the 2 man version of this... Besides the weight, the volume is quite small for what it is... It's not a bomber 4 season shelter, the fabric is fairly lightweight, but it is adequate.[/quote]

    We have a Big Agnes Scout UL2, under 2lbs, uses trekking poles or nearby trees to pitch, and fits our sleeping setup which requires 50" width at the foot end. As you mention about the Copper Spur, it has it's tradeoffs - it's fairly delicate fabric and condensation can be a real issue in certain conditions. No vestibule, but extra room at the foot end. It's a definite option, though our ideal 3-season tent from a comfort and durability standpoint is a Hilleberg Anjan 3GT (around 5lb, so a penalty of +3lb). I do like that the Copper Spur UL3 has a rectangular inner footprint - a shame they didn't do that on the CS UL2.

    With a kiddo it's nice having a freestanding tent... You won't always be able to find that perfect spot to stake out or deal with a trekking pole shelter.

    A freestanding tent frees you up too from having to stop earlier than you might like for fear of finding that perfect spot, and it also pitches quick when that emergency rain storm pops up or the nap monster attacks mom and dad too. Being able to throw down where and when you like is nice.
    We usually don't use trekking poles to pitch the Scout - a couple of nearby trees and a bit of paracord works a lot better. The Hilleberg tunnel tents actually pitch a whole lot faster than the Big Agnes Scout, which is a definite advantage when it's cold and rainy. With those, I can get a tent up enough to take shelter in with two cords tied to trees (or whatever), or two stakes. I do have the extra overhead of having to fuss with poles, but that's really not bad when it's a full sleeve that you just shove the pole into rather than having to deal with a bunch of clips. Wouldn't want to fight wind without more staking out but it's enough to get out of a deluge, or for a sheltered nap in calm weather. That said, if weather is calm why bother with the tent at all? Freestanding can be a definite advantage in some situations, but as none of our tents are freestanding, I don't feel a need for it. Yet... The one thing I do miss about our freestanding tent that we sold was the ability to pick the whole thing up and shake out any dirt easily.

    BTW- while the "glow" isn't that bright, it is pretty handy at night time for setting everything up, or for mom and dad not to blast awake kiddo with a headlamp. If nothing else- at about a 2 ounce difference it is lighter than most lights would be, and you can always leave the battery pack at home to save the weight.
    I have thought seriously about getting a mtnGlo (they are sold separately) to carry along, and this urges me further. We carry a compact lantern but I am pretty sure the mtnGlo setup would be lighter, and we carry a power bank anyways which could be used to power it. Sometimes some spread-out light that isn't directional from a headlamp is really nice to have. Though I'll admit this is a pure luxury and we could do without it.

    https://www.campmor.com/c/euroschirm...sfree-umbrella
    I have this for a few reasons-
    big enough to cover me and kiddo.
    comes with the hands free kit.
    It is an extra long, adjustable length handle.
    UPF protection.
    We started with these, but exchanged them for SwingLites. The extra-long handle didn't prove itself to be worth the weight nor did the hands-free kit work very well. The SwingLites are a bit flimsier but so far have held up well and seem to work just as adequately. I can bind mine to my packframe for hands-free use (another external frame advantage).

  20. #40
    Registered User Just Bill's Avatar
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    https://www.tarptent.com/cloudburst3.html
    just a thought, if you like the tunnel tents...
    3 man CSUL is a nice footprint size and choice I think fer the reasons mentioned, including shaking out the goldfish crumbs

    These are probably a bit tight, but weight and design changes over there make Sierra designs worth a look if you like the scout...
    https://www.sierradesigns.com/product/flashlight-2-fl
    https://www.sierradesigns.com/product/flash-3-fl

    EE shells are plenty tough, and switching to a 10d shell does allow smaller packing overall. Shell weight is big savings on the weight.
    If you like to drag them around camp or drape it on you by the fire... maybe not so much. But for just sleeping in the tent they are plenty.

    If you're talking near term with a second kiddo... then a front pack up to about 18 months may work out okay.
    I'd say keep the older one with Gina and the pack she likes, and consider giving her some bulky but light items (sleeping insulation, spare clothes, etc.)
    You take the little one in a front pack for a bit... and eventually when the new one outgrows the front pack the older one is big enough to walk some.
    ... my son was about 50/50 walking by 4. Depends how far we are trying to go. Point being, he walks enough that I could get away with a regular pack and let him ride on my shoulders for a bit for breaks if we wanted to keep moving... except for branches. By age 4 ish, naps are pretty well done if you want them to be too.

    If you're talking preparing for two now... Maybe you grab the osprey Poco and simply plop the food bag or other dense heavy items into the kid seat.
    10lbs of carrier with 3l of water plus a 30 pound kid.... pretty well disqualifies most of us from moving much before you add any gear.

    Realistically, you have to be pretty ruthless on the weight to get to something you can both handle comfortably.
    You know the drill- get out the spreadsheet and shoot for 80-90lbs as a group. I would try to set a limit of 40 for Gina, 50 for you.

    You can't do anything about the kiddos... so like em or not that's why I did the Osprey. 6lbs stripped down and it can handle 60lbs.
    Fer me and the boy... 6lb pack, 3lb shelter, 3lb sleep was about the best I could do. 2-6lbs of water at any given time and a few pounds of food and you hit 15lbs plus the kid and 40lbs is a long distant memory.
    I cut us both down to almost zero spare clothes, minimal diddy bag and cook kit. I went heavy on snacks and no cook food as that's what he likes anyway... but still I haven't had much luck cracking much past 50lbs for the two of us.

    That's pretty ultralight really... it's a relative term after you remove the 35lb giggle monster.
    15lb baseweight with food and water for two people (or 1 1/2 people) is bordering SUL really. In those type of baseweight terms that pound or two of carrier is pretty relevant.
    That's bout all you can do, discount the kids and look at the weight relative to the basegear.

    The good news; you got the most important thing- a willing wife
    A true tarp rig is about the only way to crack the 3lb shelter.
    Neo-air the only way to beat the bulk monster.
    Down quilt that's shared the only real sleep solution.
    6lb vs 10lb kid carrier is a big cut- as they say though- ain't a pound you can save if you don't like the pack.
    Bout the only other thing you can look into hard is the kiddo related stuff that ends up along.

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