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  1. #1
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    Default The Ultralight-with-a-Child Experiment

    I backpack with my wife, and our 14-month-old son. This means she carries him in a (8lb heavy) backpack carrier, whose cargo room holds his necessities (diapers, clothing, etc.), while I end up carrying all the gear for two adults, along with food. We both have water bladders.

    Well, with winter backpacking necessitating more and heavier gear, my pack size and weight have grown to epic proportions. I am really looking forward two lightening my load in the spring, and it got me wondering just how far we can shave things down.

    Be warned, the following recent pictures of our packs may cause blindness to gram weanies:

    IMG_0701.jpg IMG_0727.jpg

    Combined weight we carried for our last trip? 130lbs! Haha, well anyways...let's move along. When we're not planning for winter, I think there's some ways we can lighten up considerably:
    * No snowshoes or microspikes, lighter footwear
    * No midlayer clothing
    * 3-season tent
    * Thinner/lighter sleeping quilt
    * Only one set of CCF pads, or ditch them entirely in favor of air mattresses (while I don't like the idea of air mattress failure, it's less critical if it happens outside of winter cold, and worst case we can squeeze together onto one temporarily)
    * Less cookware, and less comfort items in general that we don't really need if focused on hiking miles over all else

    Of course, we are stuck with a 25-30lb child to carry. Our Deuter Kid Comfort 3 weighs 7lb 11oz, and it doesn't seem there are really any lighter options on the market without sacrificing cargo capacity or something else important (other carriers in the same class include the Osprey Poco Premium and Kelty Pathfinder 3.0). Another option is to use a soft structured carrier like an Ergobaby on the front, and a backpack on the back. This doesn't really seem to work out so well in practice though, since the straps conflict and the two things don't really work together well. Just for kicks, last night we packed full a Sea-to-Summit Ultra-Sil day pack and put that on in conjunction with the lightest structured carrier we could find, the Bitybean Tomato:

    IMG_0756.jpg IMG_0757.jpg

    Obviously this isn't backpacking-worthy gear, but it was an interesting experiment as it was surprising what all we could cram into the 20L pack. Stuffed in there is a tent that will fit us, 12 tent pegs; our baselayers, hats, jackets, and extra socks; a wood stove, cookware and spoons; 2 headlamps; our hygiene kit; rain gear; gear repair supplies, and some other necessities. The only notable exception was a sleeping quilt, and of course food, water, and baby supplies. It was enlightening to see just how small our essentials could pack up. If we replaced our CCF pads with XLites to reduce bulk, and got a lighter sleeping bag for 3-season use, I think fitting everything into twice the space may be feasible. Of course, we'd need a more sturdy pack but if we didn't need to carry the baby in it, it could be a 5 pounds lighter than the carrier. I previously had tried out a Vargo Ti-Arc pack, which seemed nice for a 30lb load, the ZPacks Arc Haul is another option that advertises ability to carry an extra 10lbs.

    The main problems I see with carrying the baby in the front are:
    * Conflicts between the backpack and the carrier, since they are not made to work together or be worn simultaneously
    * No ventilation between the person carrying the baby and the baby, making for some sweaty hot times
    * Possibly difficult to navigate on the trail with impaired visibility of where you are going to step

    For the first, I wonder if a design concept similar to an Aarn pack would work. Not sure how to deal with the second or third problems.

    But if something were possible, we could stand to reduce our overall weight by rather a lot, and when we have a second baby to carry and each have to carry one, this sort of arrangement seems preferable to two heavily-laden and overpacked frame backpack child carriers. Curious to hear any comments or suggestions - I'm happy to entertain any ideas!
    Last edited by Casey & Gina; 02-09-2016 at 16:45.

  2. #2
    Registered User egilbe's Avatar
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    You need a pulk. Put all your gear in the pulk and drag it along behind you. I guess I should mention it works better on snow and trails that aren't extremely steep. They even make them for children.

  3. #3
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    Must b other ways to carry a baby then a 8 lb thing . Modify a pack to carry both child and gear. 2 xtherm and a sit pad for child. EE quilts,8x10 tarp ,window film ground cloth.six moon designs closeout backpack can carry lots of weight with comfort and cheep.

    Thom

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    I would think about cutting leg holes in the SMD pack ,packing gear below to form a comfy seat .

    Thom

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    Brings me back to the days when my daughters were little hiking in the Whites. They had day packs with jackets and munchies and I was a pack mule. A few overnights like that made the AMC huts all the more affordable. Enjoy the moment.

  6. #6
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    HI - been there. My carrier weighed 3P empty - and I loved it. I have a front fanny pack with my water bottle, tp...Baby on back. we both fell with babies on the front and it scared us out of doing that again. It is important to read weather when taking little people : safety for them and you. Plan your hike so that you do not have to take tons of cold weather or wet weather gear for all. Hike that little person on the ground until it is nap time. Guess what! either you put him in his pack then or you make that your tent site. Pick a trail with this plan in mind and that it has a water source. It all slows down. You have seen the forest before. Baby hasnt. Its so wonderful to see things again like you are seeing them for the first time. About gear: Diapers are heavy coming and going. And you may be able to scrape and bury depending...If you hike in SNP, there are bear trash cans quite frequently. Baby doesnt need his heavy sippy cup. Just one wide mouth pbj jar to serve from not pack - the cheerios, yogurt covered raisins....One spoon. Just like you. Babies eat lots when in the woods. So you bring prepared food to instantly feed them. and some to cook when you do. Disney makes character separates clothing which have a coating on it which when exposed to dew and dampness dont instantly become wet and if you switch it out at night - put it under your sleeping bag kiddo doesnt need so many clothes. Suggest u stay with non inflatable rests bc u can open it wide to take a break w baby or he can nap on in or stand on it when u take his shoes off or change him on it. We loaded him with 40 pounds going out, which I could share if I HAD to.We always leave clothes, towel, food,water, diapers, wipes in the car for our return. When next baby came it went on the front of me and we switched trail types and went to base camp/hikes for while - about a year and half. After college, those babies of mine walked the AT end to end!

  7. #7

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    If you're going to go the baby in front and backpack on your back route I'd 1) get a lighter wt baby carrier. yes you might sacrifice some baby gear space going to a lighter wt carrier but you can save as much as 3 lbs on the carrier alone. Now transfer the baby's stuff to the back with your own kit to a UL backpack possibly a frameless model. Those bulky CCF ridgerests I would dispense with to a less bulky pad possibly a softer more flexible even foldable CCF pad. The bulk stored where it is at the top of the backpack creates a catching pt on low hanging branches, low overhead clearances, etc. Not what I'd want to risk in losing my balance carrying a 14 month old or younger. 2) all gear is multiple person usage. One quilt covers all of you, one shelter, one cook system, etc. 3) more than ever especially if you get to the situation where you're carrying two kids(GOD help you) your wife and you really really have to dial down the wt of your kits ie; apparel, food, etc. LOL. One thing I never weighed was baby diapers. Let us know how that works out. Maybe, by the time the second kiddie starts being carried the 14 month will be older and can do some walking by himself? He looks like a strong baby. 4) shorter distances w/ more camping and down time deeply scheduled If you're carrying a 14 month old child as well as much of your own kit how you avoid sweating is beyond me. I'd take it as a given and plan well.

  8. #8

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    I like Lynette's take on things. Plan your hikes that they aren't centered around winter or wet conditions or over strenuous terrain or elev profiles. And, if you do consider making it more into a camping trip rather than a hiking trip. As said, things SLOOOOW down with kids. let them walk some. Watch. Guide. Be patient. carry some but not all the time is my taking a young child into Nature scenario. Lighten up on personality. laugh. No hardcore shart.

  9. #9
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    Maybe take a day hike, or weekend without the baby once in a while, kinda like a date night. I hope when he's 20 he appreciates your efforts. Do bring a thermometer so you can check his body temp. just thinking about hypothermia.

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    I second the pulk sled. Also those baby carriers suck. My daughter was light but that thing made her feel like a ton, shifts the weight too far back. Also look at what you are taking. Cook kit can be one pot and very light. Do you really need all the layers? Didn't you just sell some monster Kelly pack? What does your tent weigh? Are you camping in heavy snow storms? If not light 3 season is fine.

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    It's hard to tell from the pictures - could you fit a waist pack under the structured carrier? Or you could use one instead of the S2S pack. That could potentially add 10-20 liters of storage that is on your wife's hips instead of shoulders, as it is with the S2S pack. I wouldn't want a 25lb child and 20L of gear both pulling on my shoulders without hip support. Can the unstructured carrier be used on the back over a waist pack to eliminate the visibility and strap conflict concerns?

  12. #12

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    In about a year your current baby will be too big to carry and will be walking. The speed change is like dropping out of hyperspace. This future 2 year old will lack any direction sense whatsever and will frequently be overtaken by snails. Consider a llama maybe and you might be able to carry two kids.

    Ultralight is a good way to go though. Consider a teepee style tent, they work in the winter too. Tarps are another option. Big caveat is both do not restrict the child at night. Even with the teepee, a child can roll under the side wall in the middle of the night.
    "Sleepy alligator in the noonday sun
    Sleepin by the river just like he usually done
    Call for his whisky
    He can call for his tea
    Call all he wanta but he can't call me..."
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  13. #13
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    I carried our kids a lot.
    We had three options, one was a shawl-type cloth (baby-sling) which I liked much when they were really young&small, but there was no way to carry a decent backpack in addition.
    The next was a soft front-seat like in your picture, which my wife loved but I refused, due to overwhelming body heat. Also very limited wrt kids size, as soon as my chin hit the kids top of the head I was done with that forever.
    Then we had different cradles, which I ended up putting inside my huge backpack (see Zombie Killer thread). That was fine for me, perfect for the kid, and we still could carry some extra stuff.

    But finally we resolved to reduce the hiking ambition, we skipped having the Big Goal in mind, and went to focus on the level of exhaustion (my personal limit). We just did what I could do fine with the load of the child plus some stuff, always leaving some margin for troubles, errors and fails. I was in full responsibility not only for myself, but also for the kid (my wife didn't join me so much then, due to family chores and the other kids), and I absolutely put the kid's needs in the foreground.
    The kid slept in the cradle most of the time, but that meant it was awake and lively at times when I wanted to rest. So I took it easy in walking (or skiing, as it was many times), set the goals really low, finally had some really great times with my kids outdoors, it was perfect for the kid too, and never before or after this kids-carrying time I had such strong legs again.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by damskipi View Post
    It's hard to tell from the pictures - could you fit a waist pack under the structured carrier? Or you could use one instead of the S2S pack. That could potentially add 10-20 liters of storage that is on your wife's hips instead of shoulders, as it is with the S2S pack. I wouldn't want a 25lb child and 20L of gear both pulling on my shoulders without hip support. Can the unstructured carrier be used on the back over a waist pack to eliminate the visibility and strap conflict concerns?
    "Soft Structured Carrier" refers to the sort that she is wearing in front in the picture, not the frame backpack carrier. It can be worn just as easily (and more comfortably in my opinion) in the back. They actually carry most weight on the hips as does a backpack with a hip belt. The one in the picture is certainly not the most comfortable, but it weighs only a half pound and we got it to carry along when we backpack, for use around camp. A 1-2lb carrier like an Ergobaby is much more comfortable and would be a better candidate for such a job. Not sure if a waist pack would fit underneath but it's definitely something to consider. Maybe even if something were sewn onto the carrier itself there.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo L. View Post
    I carried our kids a lot.
    The next was a soft front-seat like in your picture, which my wife loved but I refused, due to overwhelming body heat.
    Yeah, it's fine for around town but I imagine hiking with the baby carried that way in the summer would be a lousy idea.

    Then we had different cradles, which I ended up putting inside my huge backpack (see Zombie Killer thread). That was fine for me, perfect for the kid, and we still could carry some extra stuff.
    Yeah, I actually tried stuffing a Kelty TC 2.0 down inside of a Kelty 50th Anniversary pack last night after your inspiration on that thread, but it wouldn't quite fit. Your older model cradle I think had less depth to it. I don't imagine that such a combination would carry any more comfortably than the frame carriers though, and I'm not sure I could really get any more cargo capacity out of it.

    But finally we resolved to reduce the hiking ambition, we skipped having the Big Goal in mind, and went to focus on the level of exhaustion (my personal limit). We just did what I could do fine with the load of the child plus some stuff, always leaving some margin for troubles, errors and fails. I was in full responsibility not only for myself, but also for the kid (my wife didn't join me so much then, due to family chores and the other kids), and I absolutely put the kid's needs in the foreground.
    The kid slept in the cradle most of the time, but that meant it was awake and lively at times when I wanted to rest. So I took it easy in walking (or skiing, as it was many times), set the goals really low, finally had some really great times with my kids outdoors, it was perfect for the kid too, and never before or after this kids-carrying time I had such strong legs again.
    We are both really hoping to do a long-distance hike, despite the difficulty. I can agree that we both need some time off to get away from the "real world" for a while. We have gone as we are (minus winter gear) for about 100 miles of the AT locally so far, but the longest day was 17 miles. It's doable with this much weight but I guess I'm just curious how much we could manage to reduce it if we really tried.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewguy View Post
    I second the pulk sled.
    For winter use in the snow, I can see the value!

    Cook kit can be one pot and very light. Do you really need all the layers? Didn't you just sell some monster Kelly pack? What does your tent weigh? Are you camping in heavy snow storms? If not light 3 season is fine.
    Yes, we are camping in heavy snow storms. But that doesn't mean we'll be doing the same come spring, and I will not be lugging the 10lb tent along outside of winter. We have two lighter-weight tents - one that is more roomy with a large vestibule and double-wall at 5 pounds, and one that is more minimal (single-wall, no vestibule) but that we can fit in comfortably enough at 2 pounds. I didn't sell a monster Kelty pack, but I am looking for a particular rare one. I have tried a lot of packs carrying 45+ lbs and so far the Kelty Super Tioga has performed the best. Certainly if I can lighten that load up then I could use a lighter pack, but it's actually 2-3 pounds lighter than some of the internal frame packs I tried so for the carrying capacity (75lbs on our last trip), isn't bad. Our winter weight (including the child and food and water) last trip was 130lbs, but in the warmer months it was around 90-100lbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by squeezebox View Post
    Maybe take a day hike, or weekend without the baby once in a while, kinda like a date night. I hope when he's 20 he appreciates your efforts. Do bring a thermometer so you can check his body temp. just thinking about hypothermia.
    We do weekend hikes a lot, especially when I have a Monday or Friday off from work and we can get 2 nights out in on the deal. We are planning to do a long-distance hike this year though, hence why I'm contemplating ways to lighten things up. He's kept warm - in that picture he's wearing a regular clothing layer, a wool footie, and a down snow suit. We do keep tabs on how he's doing and are well-prepared in that respect. Fortunately, extra layers for a baby don't weigh all that much since they are small.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    If you're going to go the baby in front and backpack on your back route I'd 1) get a lighter wt baby carrier. yes you might sacrifice some baby gear space going to a lighter wt carrier but you can save as much as 3 lbs on the carrier alone. Now transfer the baby's stuff to the back with your own kit to a UL backpack possibly a frameless model. Those bulky CCF ridgerests I would dispense with to a less bulky pad possibly a softer more flexible even foldable CCF pad. The bulk stored where it is at the top of the backpack creates a catching pt on low hanging branches, low overhead clearances, etc. Not what I'd want to risk in losing my balance carrying a 14 month old or younger. 2) all gear is multiple person usage. One quilt covers all of you, one shelter, one cook system, etc. 3) more than ever especially if you get to the situation where you're carrying two kids(GOD help you) your wife and you really really have to dial down the wt of your kits ie; apparel, food, etc. LOL. One thing I never weighed was baby diapers. Let us know how that works out. Maybe, by the time the second kiddie starts being carried the 14 month will be older and can do some walking by himself? He looks like a strong baby. 4) shorter distances w/ more camping and down time deeply scheduled If you're carrying a 14 month old child as well as much of your own kit how you avoid sweating is beyond me. I'd take it as a given and plan well.
    I think you're right on with the CCF pads. We find them comfortable and like that they can't fail, plus in wintertime you don't have to worry about catching so much growth. But in the warmer months I think I will relent to XLites or XTherms which pack up much smaller. We tried the foldable CCF's, but they really aren't any smaller than the rolled-up kind, just shaped differently, and less comfortable. Also they don't come in large sizes, which we need since the three of us share a single sleeping system of two large pads contained in a groundsheet and zips to our quilt (Feathered Friends Condor) and hoods. We can get another Condor with a higher temperature rating to lighten up the load and reduce bulk, while being compatible with the proven system we already use. Probably don't need to carry the hoods outside of winter either - hats and balaclavas may be sufficient. We use flat cotton diapers (2.7oz each) and carry about a dozen when backpacking. They are easy to wash in the backcountry with an Ultra-Sil Kitchen Sink (1.7oz). I have done some research and it seems that hemp will dry faster than cotton, so we will probably switch to that.

    He actually just did his first walking last night, but I don't think that means he'll be ready to handle miles on the trail any time soon.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynnette View Post
    we both fell with babies on the front and it scared us out of doing that again.
    Ouch, scary! I am happy to report that neither of us has ever fallen during warmer months, and when I did fall somewhat recently it was due to ice and I landed on my bum. I like to think our balance is pretty good, but that is definitely a concern worth bearing in mind.

    Baby doesnt need his heavy sippy cup. Just one wide mouth pbj jar to serve from not pack - the cheerios, yogurt covered raisins....One spoon. Just like you.
    We don't use a sippy cup at all. He actually will drink water from the hydration bladder already, and feeding on the trail is not an issue using what we use ourselves. We don't carry anything extra just for him to eat or drink from.

    Suggest u stay with non inflatable rests bc u can open it wide to take a break w baby or he can nap on in or stand on it when u take his shoes off or change him on it.
    Yeah, that is a nice advantage of the CCF pads! But I figure I can use a tent footprint for the same purposes, even staking it down if we'll be taking a longer break.

    After college, those babies of mine walked the AT end to end!
    Woo hoo! Congratulations!

  20. #20
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    In summer you could modify a double jogging stroller to work like a pulk but with wheels, can also put a little gear in it.

    Thats a lot of weight. There is a couple in alaska that travel with small kids. Erin and hig I think? Might be able to steel some ideas from them.

    The super tioga is what I was thinking, for some reason I thought you were selling it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Casey & Gina View Post
    For winter use in the snow, I can see the value!



    Yes, we are camping in heavy snow storms. But that doesn't mean we'll be doing the same come spring, and I will not be lugging the 10lb tent along outside of winter. We have two lighter-weight tents - one that is more roomy with a large vestibule and double-wall at 5 pounds, and one that is more minimal (single-wall, no vestibule) but that we can fit in comfortably enough at 2 pounds. I didn't sell a monster Kelty pack, but I am looking for a particular rare one. I have tried a lot of packs carrying 45+ lbs and so far the Kelty Super Tioga has performed the best. Certainly if I can lighten that load up then I could use a lighter pack, but it's actually 2-3 pounds lighter than some of the internal frame packs I tried so for the carrying capacity (75lbs on our last trip), isn't bad. Our winter weight (including the child and food and water) last trip was 130lbs, but in the warmer months it was around 90-100lbs.

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