calories

[CamelMan]

limit carbs which turn off the fat burning system.

That's completely incorrect. They're fat-sparing (to some extent) but it depends on your goals. The fat adaptation drinkwater is doing seems to be of the same type as exercising in a fasted state ("bonk training") that can increase the proportion of fat burned from the ~50/50 mix we normally burn. The studies I've seen have only modest gains (say, 50->55%) so I'm curious how far he can push it.

It is correct, though, that eating fat will spare your carb burning. That might be good for long-distance hiking/running, but is bad for weight loss.

[RockDoc]

Sorry, but that study raises more questions than it answers. It's a very short term study without specifics. You can't fat adapt in 6 days. We are not told the amounts of fats and carbs. These types of studies are just garbage.

The fact is that when insulin is very high, you are not going to be burning off your fat stores because that metabolic pathway is closed.

[RockDoc]

"...your blood sugar will spike, causing a large release in insulin. During this period of time your body cannot use fat for fuel (even if you are operating under a calorie deficit and even if you workout like crazy)."

just one quick reference, there are many others.

[RockDoc]

http://www.jctejournal.com/article/S2214-6237%2816%2930006-0/abstract

"...consumption of low GI meals may be a strategic approach in improving overall glycaemia and increasing fat oxidation..."

not rocket science. Obviously not completely incorrect.

[CamelMan]

Sorry, but that study raises more questions than it answers. It's a very short term study without specifics. You can't fat adapt in 6 days.

That's a really good study conducted in a metabolic ward, the precise standard of measurement. It's not about fat adaption from exercise, but changing what you eat. Pubmed does have studies about long-term, exercise-induced changes in macronutrient utilization though.

Coming from a weight loss mindset, it's good to know that eating carbs is the best way to lose weight because your body will continue to burn fat. It's how my diet works and it works damned well.

On the flip side of the coin, if your goal is to extend your glycogen reserves, it's good to know that you can do it by eating fat, which the study shows will decrease the proportion of carbohydrates burned. What the authors conclude is that it's bad for weight loss because of the overall decrease in calorie burn. But good for somebody who wants to hike longer or carry a lighter load, regardless of the long-term consequences for eating too much fat.

Insulin is needed for carbs and protein to enter cells. What would you do without it? Be a Type-1 diabetic. Over the last 10 days I've lost almost 4 more pounds, eating more than 600g of carbohydrates a day, 70% of my calories (about a 70/15/15 mix which is unusual because I've been eating nuts and protein powder, usually I'm closer to 80/10/10 or 75/10/15). I averaged about 264g of sugar a day--more than half a pound--and 176g of starches. How did that happen if my fat burning metabolic pathway was "closed"? You can't "close" a metabolic pathway--some proportion of sugar and fat is always going to be burned--you can only change the balance.

[CamelMan]

Obviously not completely incorrect.

You're right, you can definitely increase fat burning. I shouldn't have said "completely incorrect". I'm coming from a weight-loss mindset so I'm thinking in those terms. That's why I went back and added that it depends what your goals are.

[SpoonsMcgoo]

I cut out all of the typical hike crap food (Pop Tarts and Ramen). Went to a more balanced diet. You don't get that burst of energy from that heavenly Oreo Pop Tart but you don't crash either. The key is to keep consistently fueling yourself. I did the A-100 (100 miles in 50 hr hike on the North Country Trail in Allegheny National Forest) last year with only PowerBars and Pop Tarts. I got tired of them in the first 6 hrs and couldn't stomach enough of them to keep any energy. I hit the wall at the 60 mile mark and dropped out. I revised my diet, made all my own energy bars (lots of bird seed), carried real fruit, and drank straight water. I knocked out the 4 state challenge in 18 hrs with no problems and very little recovery pain. i have this years A-100 next week and I anticipate it will go a lot smoother.

[Dogwood]

Drink water, with this objective "as a fastpacker my focus is on carrying the lowest weight possible" have you considered reducing or eliminating the sugar laden M&M's, Capt N' Crunch, and Mountain Dew?

[rocketsocks]

Drink water, with this objective "as a fastpacker my focus is on carrying the lowest weight possible" have you considered reducing or eliminating the sugar laden M&M's, Capt N' Crunch, and Mountain Dew?

...and not only are all those sugars empty calories, but I'd go as far to say poison...literally.

[Just Bill]

Fer Drinkwater....

Joey Camps did a fair bit of body training for his PCT hike, which he set a midpoint and california FKT. It sounds like you are pursuing a similar nutrition plan as him generally speaking and it might be worth looking into his experience with Ketosis (sp?) and sustained 50 mile days.

Pepper (Shawn Forrey) holds the Colorado Trail self supported FKT and I think you might find his strategy good for your Virginia FKT.

[Just Bill]

For short hikes I also do 100 calories per mile. I pretty much scrapped all major meals and do constant hourly dripping of calories. You may try reversing your approach on hills and eat on the downhills allowing your body to begin processing the caloies on the uphills. It is also easier to eat when you aren't worrying about getting increased oxygen for the climb.

When I have opps to resupply and especially supplement more often at my own acceptable level of inconvenience I usually do it. This allows to take more food, different kinds of food including more fresh produce, have a much greater variety of taste sensations, provides much food wiggle room, and I don't have to as concerned about consumable wt adhering to an UL style.

Constant grazer typically consumed on the fly. Blue blood bars and trail mixes of nuts, seeds and fruit are a big part of typical daily consumption. Only real meal is dinner and perhaps a hot b-fast oats concoction in cooler or winter weather. Food is a rather easy to make affair involving boiling water and perhaps chopping up some produce. ie; one pot wonders. I like consuming whole foods, living foods, both on and off trail that are minimally processed. Excess package wt is discarded. Portion sizes and nutritional break down are typically personalized by tweaking these things. Typical hiking day involves hiking 14-16 hrs. I aim at 130+ cals/oz avg. On greater food hauls of 6-7 + days is where the daily and entire food haul calories, cal/oz ratios, and wider perspective overall nutritional profile takes greater emphasis especially in an UL scheme. I tend to take a trail food approach that considers LD backpacking as more of an athletic sporting event where performance is influenced by what goes into my body and mind.

On my sustained high-mileage hikes (hiked the AT at a 20+ mpd pace, just over 100 days) I neglect the concept of meals. I don't carry a stove. I stop at least every two hours for a rest and food break. Staples are muesli (rolled oats, walnuts, raisins), tortillas and cheese, peanut butter, cashews, crackers, Fig Newtons, some fresh fruit and veg when available. Average calories 130+/oz. I pack one pound per 10 miles, just over 100 cal/mile though I never thought of it that way. That plus healthy town meals sustains my lean 5-9 frame and 150 pounds pretty well in the long term.

On the CDT, I often hiked 100 miles between resupplies in two nights out with that strategy, sometimes with eight pounds of food due to mostly easier terrain in some areas. Going stoveless made town stops easier with no need for fuel resupply.

to the OP- I think you got a solid mix of general strategy and philosophy here.

I think the only thing not really mentioned is that (generally) you're talking three folks here who are mostly moving in cruise control. A pedal to the medal FKT type mileage with maximum daily effort can run you into the 5000+ per day range easily. But when you are scaling back just a bit to about 80% of max effort I do believe the 100 cal/mile is a very good benchmark to work from.

I feel pretty confident saying those folks could hit a 40 mile day, perhaps back to back 40's to give you an idea of 100%. So 30 MPD average paces could be seen as 75% efforts from a calorie standpoint.

Ray Jardine was a big proponent of hiking by Tachometer (heart rate) as a way to gauge and control effort and in some form almost all long distance hikers follow that method. If you avoid beating your head against the mountain and take what the trail allows... you will find that your diet is more stable as well. If it's not an FKT level of effort then no need to redline the engine.

Personally-
I like "thirds" as an eating method.

A third of my calories from meals; a museli type no cook breakfast and a late afternoon dinner as you mentioned. If the calories will be big due to pushing my own limits, then a lunch type meal may be added... something a bit more complicated than simply a sitdown snack, but often no cook.

A third of my calories from snacks and grazing.

A third of my calories from liquids... I find it hard to physically eat 4-6k calories a day. So using gatorade, Malto Mix, or other drinks is not only a nice change in flavor... combined with the snacks I get a constant drip of calories from several forms.

I tend to agree a bit more with a Dogwood and Garlic type style/philosophy on more casual trips... a few breaks a day, as much fresh food, variety and "treats" as I can carry.
If it's not an FKT... and you've slashed and burned to an ultralight rig already... what's a few extra pounds of food against your happiness/well being, etc?

Yar... if you're looking for some maximum effort at your limits, you might need to get a bit more scientific on your calories, volume, weight, bulk and even trash.

But if you're looking to sustain a solid 75-80% 10-14 hour a day walk, of which high miles seem to simply materialize without effort then eat well. That "ball busting" extra 5 pounds of fresh stuff when you leave town full and fat from a resupply stop is not that big a deal really. And that near empty feeling of weightlessness as you complete a stretch makes the miles come extra easy.

Barring the first and last day of the average 2-5 day 100-200 mile resupply schedule... I don't think that either the foodie or the scientist is really carrying any more or less weight. Though both are good things to know about and pick and choose from.

While women are a totally different deal on a long hike nutritionally...
I do think that Anish's general wild child, eat happy, carry more real food, toss the numbers out the window and be crazy happy style is something to consider seriously.

Generally at the end of the day... whoever walks the most hours per day gets further.
The more of those hours are happy ones, the more you'll be happy to repeat them.

[Dogwood]

. LOL. Yes, I was hungry at the end of that trip but nothing a trip to the restaurant didn't fix when it was over. I did that trip on 2000 calories per day. - I also supplemented with some borrowed food at dinner on day 3 due to the hunger pangs !!! Since then I have learn't how to get more fat calories per oz by choosing different foods. Bacon jerky instead of regular jerky. M&M's instead of regular chocolate. Cliff blocks instead of Cliff shots. Raw almonds. Mountain Dew. Captain Crunch. Olive oil tuna packs. For 2 to 3 days I can get by on 1500 calories. I am hungry when I get home and will eat a roast chicken and loaf of garlic bread. It's taking me about 5 days to recover from a long run (around 50 miles). I'm hoping to do Virginia (550 miles) unsupported in 10 days (That means carrying 10 days of food), I will be focusing on the first 5 days around 1500 to 2000 calories, then switching to 2500 to 3000 calories for the last 5 days...

When I said, "when I have opps to resupply and especially supplement more often at my own acceptable level of inconvenience I usually do it. This allows to take more food, different kinds of food including more fresh produce, have a much greater variety of taste sensations, provides much food wiggle room, and I don't have to as concerned about consumable wt adhering to an UL style" I forgot to include another reason why I take this approach... to avoid the in town massive over eating/binge eating which many LD hikers including myself have been accustomed. Thinking massive caloric consumption in one gorging is going to immediately make up for a long term cumulative daily caloric deficit without consequences is IMO a mistake nutritionally and energy wise especially when going forward continuing to hike after gorging on calories. I see many times those coming back to the hike after town stays that included 2 hr buffet stints really dogging it with sluggish energy levels just the opposite of what may be assumed. This included me. I realized it and have since vastly cut down on the in town or trail angel massive caloric intake food binges. I prefer greater consistency in my energy levels, digestion, and assimilation. I assume a FKTer attempter would likely have similar goals. I'm surprised more LD hikers, and maybe they do but aren't relating it, don't have binge eating, significant yo yo wt, body fat gain, and muscle mass loss issues during and going forward after long hikes.

It may be Dinkwater your daily caloric goals that worked OK for you over a short period such as 3-4 days is not the optimal approach for a 10 day VA FKT attempt. And, again if a unsupported VA FKT is your goal with you carrying 10 days food, which I don't think you absolutely have to do if you supplement along the way or break up the resupply by utilizing on trail or very near resupply to reduce your consumable haul, extra wt hauled is going to likely more significantly affect the clock than spending an hr or less grabbing two or more resupplies/supplements rather than hauling one large 10 day haul from the get go.

Good luck.

[Malto]

If I were doing a 10 day VA trip, I would still do the 100 calorie per mile of predominately carbs and protein for recovery. I would expect to lose between 10-15 pounds during the trip. I did a slightly less aggressive trip a month ago, 180 miles in 4.5 days and used this strategy combined with town stops/meals at Damascus and Freindahip shelter for more binge eating. My food during that trip consisted of a combination of carried out town food and normal hiking fuel.

[Rmcpeak]

Excellent discussion! Since my original post I've done 154 miles in 5 days (damascus>woods hole hostel/pearisburg) and last weekend I did swift run gap to rockfish gap in 36 hrs. Both trips I planned about 100 cals per mile and that has worked out pretty well.