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  1. #2581

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    I don't think stage 4 or stage 5 are inevidable.

    Of course, if stage 3 is successful, all is good again.

    That article seems fanciful: dislocated his shoulder, toenails ripped off in spite of his having shoes.

    In many ways, it is the man against a savage nature scenario notion, that interfers so much with having successful experiences outdoors by making it all so much about fears, overcomming fears only by gutting it out or "manning up".

    For people that actually get outdoors reasonably well equipped with their clothing and their outfit and their knowledge, these scenarios do not materialize.

    I was "lost" once, along with one of my older brothers. He was a confident athlete, a champion athlete. He had been in military service. He had had survival training. None of that equipped him for the experience.

    I was a little girl, wearing hand-me-down left over old clothing, because I only had dresses. I had looked at the map on the signage at the trailhead.

    My older brother pulled me away. Let's get going.

    We left Morraine Lake Campground without telling the ranger. Aren't we going to tell the ranger? I asked.

    There was snow higher up the trail. We saw footprints in the snow coming our way.

    My brother said, other people have been over this pass from the other direction, let's keep going..

    No, they had turned back.

    When we had not seen more footprints, because of gently falling snow, it was already too late to turn back. We were in a high valley surrounded by mountains with steep slopes of unstable snow. There were avalanches.

    On the map I had seen there was a pass, over to the right, that went down and thru a number of trails but one trail went to the road and one trail ran parallel to the road with a raveine separating the trailmand the road all the way up to Lake Louise.

    I saw my brother hit stage 2 and stage 3 right away, but his "strategic thinking" was irrelevant to our situation.

    I said, there is the pass out of here. He followed me. I followed an animal trail.

    He recited his military training, that could not help at this point. I pushed him on.

    When he wanted to run. I said, good, you run up ahead to the next junction in the trail (there were more than a few) amd you wait for me, jogging in place. He said, good, I feel better if I run. I said, of course, you are an athlete.

    When we reached the critical junction, to the road or the trail parallel the road with a raveine between the trail and the road, I told him I had seen that on the map at the trailhead.

    He wanted to take the wrong trail. He was insistent.

    I said, we will go a little way, and, you will see. Then, we will go back here and take this trail out to the road.

    We were cold, wet, dehydrated. We had brought no food, or snacks. We had no shelter. He had no proper clothing, and had been shivering amd then shaking with the cold. I was better clothed, in old left over hand me down clothing from my brothers, the trousers held up with suspenders. When I was too warm, I opened the trousers held up by suspenders, because I knew perspiring in my clothing would make wet cold clothing.

    He was a wreck, but he was rational.

    We saw the trail was steadily rising and ran parallel where the road must be. After all, we drove to Morraine Lake Campground on that road. We turned back, retracing our steps, reached the junction in the trail, chose the correct train, and very soon we were at the road.

    Someone gave us a ride.

    The ranger was extremely glad to see us.

    I had already flopped down on the nice camp cot bed.

    The ranger looked in, the tent flap pulled aside.

    He had said he wanted to see me.

    My brother was talking rapidly. His wife was greatly relieved.

    Is there anything, in that story, like that article?
    Last edited by Connie; 05-29-2016 at 00:53.

  2. #2582
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    Inside Edition has a brief clip from an upcoming episode of North Woods Law, as the wardens and state police examine the site. http://www.insideedition.com/headlin...alachian-trail

    There is a very sad moment as the camera catches the emotion on the face of one obviously upset warden.

    Not sure the TV episode will add any new information, but seeing a bit of it adds to the sadness of Gerrys ordeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goonky View Post
    That part of the report struck me as well. How easily they walked out. Of course - they weren't lost - so in a completely different frame of mind. I read this essay a while back and thought it was a fascinating read. I was especially interested in how they compared getting lost to the stages of grief.

    http://www.smcmsar.org/downloads/Los...20Behavior.pdf

    It gave me some insight into how something like this could happen.
    Very good article

  4. #2584
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    Quote Originally Posted by booney_1 View Post
    I know that radio equipment is usually brought in to facilitate communication among the responders...who are using "normal" or analog radios. A portable cell base station would operate on the frequencies that cell phones use. Knowing her cell number they could send her a text with instructions, and look for her phone to connect to the portable tower.

    I've never heard of this being used for a search and rescue, but it seems pretty reasonable. Law enforcement use these from time to time in various operations.
    Your post has merit... have you considered in a pinch that the inter-agency co-op and availability of such equipment which is available around Philadelphia is non-existent in Maine. They had the last ping (tower triangulation) from the phone and the LEO's discounted it and it wasn't far off.
    Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    Woo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goonky View Post
    That part of the report struck me as well. How easily they walked out. Of course - they weren't lost - so in a completely different frame of mind. I read this essay a while back and thought it was a fascinating read. I was especially interested in how they compared getting lost to the stages of grief.

    http://www.smcmsar.org/downloads/Los...20Behavior.pdf

    It gave me some insight into how something like this could happen.
    Very good article

    The faulty mental maps and unwillingness to change course due to "invested effort" in wrong course, are frequently seen in persons lost. People rescued successfully in Yosemite have shown amazement that they were wrong about direction and so far off course to get out on own. They believed 100% in their plan, when evidence in face was contradicting.

    Ive personally been to point before where from dehydration I thought a map was wrong. I recall clearly rationalizing that I was right and the map must be incorrect. Recovering from that and realizing it is eye opening how easy it can happen.

  6. #2586
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goonky View Post
    <!--?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?-->I want to make a plug for map and compass skills. I don’t agree they are useless if you are lost, in fact, they are just what you need.


    Here’s a topographical map of the area, the X marks the spot she was found.

    Attachment 35000



    You can see the trail north actually runs predominantly east / northeast. You can see from the topo it’s a steep drop into the stream, then after you cross the stream, you cross an old road bed, and you start climbing, though it’s not as steep.
    I think this topo map shows the old AT going northeast quite a ways. The current AT goes northeast, then due east towards lone Mtn.

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    I will now invest in taking a map and compass class

  8. #2588
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    I believe there is a mistaken belief that someone who has walked a couple of thousand miles on an extremely well marked trail has a set of skills that would allow self rescue if lost. In general, and possibly in this case specific, walking blaze to blaze using a data book or Guthook is not teaching many skills at all. And even if someone is carrying a map do they know where they are on the map? For those carrying a compass, do they know how to use it or is it in their pack because someone had it on a list of ten essentials? Do they know the general direction of the trail in the area? I would guess that the average AT thru hiker likely would answer no to one or more of these questions. Look at the reliance on apps such as guthook even on more remote and scarcely marked trails. Could the average PCT hiker find their way through a snow covered area if their electronic safety blanket went dead? NO WAY because everyone says the trail is easy to follow (until it's not) and route find is not considered a critical skill on at least the AT and PCT.

    COmbine that with "panic" and poor decision making and this is the result. Doubt there was any broader medical issue that makes this case easier to rationalize. Sometimes the simplest explanations work. Very sad story.
    enemy of unnecessary but innovative trail invention gadgetry

  9. #2589

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    I grew up in the area and hiked this section a number of years ago. There was/is a tricky little dogleg in the trail shortly after crossing the old RR grade. I suspect the bathroom break occurred near there. A simple hike back to the trail could result in missing the trail at the dogleg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acacia View Post
    I will now invest in taking a map and compass class
    Also consider picking up an old Boy Scout handbook. In it you will find several ways to find direction without a compass and how to orient a map by ground features (along with lots of other good outdoors information).

    The problem with a map is that without knowing exactly where you are on it, or having several landmarks you can sight and identify on it, it's difficult to find what direction to you need to go. Finding distant landmarks in the dense Maine woods is quite difficult. One would have to climb to a high point with a view to even have a chance at orienting the map.
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

  11. #2591

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl View Post
    Your post has merit... have you considered in a pinch that the inter-agency co-op and availability of such equipment which is available around Philadelphia is non-existent in Maine. They had the last ping (tower triangulation) from the phone and the LEO's discounted it and it wasn't far off.
    This instance?

  12. #2592

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuddyWaters View Post
    Or could carry one of these.

    Attachment 34953

    I hate to say it, but why was her SPOT left behind in hotel?
    No doubt in my mind that it being a communications toy that requires frequent maintenance (batteries) had something to do with it not being in pack with her other gear where it belonged.
    Probably more due to bad judgement than anything else. As more of details come, there is no shortage of that.

    As far as "frequent maintenance" for a SPOT - you're either full of BS or have never used a SPOT device. I have mine out almost every weekend for most of the year with enhanced tracking and use 2 or maybe 3 sets of lithium ion batteries per year. The best part is that I get added utility from the SPOT that PLBs don't offer and can find the batteries pretty much everywhere for a few $. I understand the differences between the SPOT, InReach, and PLBs (which I've used at sea for years) but for hiking in the areas that I'm in, a device like the SPOT and InReach are good enough. You should also mention that the PLB batteries last maybe 5 years (the battery clock really starts from date of manufacture and includes time sitting around before its sold) and require the unit to be sent to an authorized repair center for replacement - generally at a cost of half of the price of a new unit.

  13. #2593

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    Quote Originally Posted by Offshore View Post
    Probably more due to bad judgement than anything else. As more of details come, there is no shortage of that.

    As far as "frequent maintenance" for a SPOT - you're either full of BS or have never used a SPOT device. I have mine out almost every weekend for most of the year with enhanced tracking and use 2 or maybe 3 sets of lithium ion batteries per year. The best part is that I get added utility from the SPOT that PLBs don't offer and can find the batteries pretty much everywhere for a few $. I understand the differences between the SPOT, InReach, and PLBs (which I've used at sea for years) but for hiking in the areas that I'm in, a device like the SPOT and InReach are good enough. You should also mention that the PLB batteries last maybe 5 years (the battery clock really starts from date of manufacture and includes time sitting around before its sold) and require the unit to be sent to an authorized repair center for replacement - generally at a cost of half of the price of a new unit.
    Could be bad judgement. She strikes me as possibly being technnologically averse, from what Ive read. Older I get, more I realize you cant teach old dog new tricks. Simply because us old dogs really dont want to learn them. ( my dad went to bank to withdraw and deposit money till he died 5 yrs ago. Neither he or my mom ever has an atm card or used automated teller)

    Spots battery life with 30 min tracking, 8 hrs per day use is about a month with 50% clear view of sky per spots site. Less, with less ability to see sky as expected in the green tunnel. So with a 25% view of sky its ~2 wks. With less, even less. The bottom line is...you cant really know what to expect. So you will likely carry spares on any trip of any length if use that functionality. Of course, you dont have to, in which case standby can be quite long when off.

    Regardless, my plb batt is 7 yr life, came direct to me from mfg, no sitting around. There is enough built in overage that shelf life before purchase isnt really a problem to consider. Its the estimated life at which the battery will still be able to transmit signal for the required 24hrs, after the expected amount of testing has occurred as well. You could take it out to 15 yrs, it just might only transmit for 12 hrs or something (and youd be a fool to do this btw). Yeah, it costs $125 to get batt changed once every 7 yrs. Not a concern for me. I can swing it.
    Last edited by MuddyWaters; 05-29-2016 at 14:18.

  14. #2594
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Old Owl View Post
    Your post has merit... have you considered in a pinch that the inter-agency co-op and availability of such equipment which is available around Philadelphia is non-existent in Maine. They had the last ping (tower triangulation) from the phone and the LEO's discounted it and it wasn't far off.
    Verizon will, and has sent portable towers to disaster areas to fill in for damaged towers and at the request of state agencies so I see no reason why the highest profile, largest search in Maine history wouldn't warrant filling such a request.

    Also available are Man-Portable cell systems that weigh about 50 pounds, are battery powered and can be carried to remote location.

    The use of one of these portable units could easily be integrated into a SAR protocol. If the victim is known to have a cell phone bring in the portable unit. locate it on a high point and start sending messages to the victim's cell phone. If one of these portable units were on one of the higher peaks early during the search maybe a text would have been picked up.
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

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    If you look at a picture of Sugarloaf Mt., there are cell antennas on the summit. Same cell company as Gerry used ?. No clue and the antenna/transmitter equip. needs to be compatable as I don't even think they can ping the phone otherwise. So T-Mobile/GSM, or CDMA/Verizon or CDMA/Sprint all need to be involved.

    Then it's a complete crap shoot as to where you place a portable system. In this area of Maine, probably only Saddleback and Sugarloaf have a clear enough summit for the gear as they both have ski resorts.

    And then then there's no guarantee she'd be in a service area. Certainly and being on the north side of the Spaulding Mt. ridge was a factor in no service.

    So possibly a new trick for the search and rescue folks to think about but also a huge crap shoot for sure.

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    If Ive got limited battery life, and I already know Im in a no-service area, my phone will stay off most of the time in the hopes it will still work ifI get somewhere that has a signal. Otherwise some can be dead quickly. Not a reason not to attempt , just another caveat that its not foolproof..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don H View Post
    Also available are Man-Portable cell systems that weigh about 50 pounds, are battery powered and can be carried to remote location.
    I hope a day comes (soon) when these units will get lighter and they can be carried by drones.

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    Well wouldn't that be something. A drone with a cell phone receiver that could ping a lost persons phone and triangulate their position.
    "Chainsaw" GA-ME 2011

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goonky View Post
    That part of the report struck me as well. How easily they walked out. Of course - they weren't lost - so in a completely different frame of mind. I read this essay a while back and thought it was a fascinating read. I was especially interested in how they compared getting lost to the stages of grief.

    http://www.smcmsar.org/downloads/Los...20Behavior.pdf

    It gave me some insight into how something like this could happen.
    I researched the article further. It was written in 2001 when the science around being lost was just beginning to be studied. The author later turned this into a book called Deep Survival which is now being used to train Navy SEALS. It's available on Amazon and I'm going to order it now.
    Follow your bliss......
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    http://www.trailjournals.com/rockie/

  20. #2600

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    International Outward Bound started well, based on old guys living longer than healthy young men, in liferafts or hanging on to flotsam or floating as best they could.

    Even in the U.S. Army, that survival method to stay afloat was scheduled.

    Outward Bound, however, became something like a boot camp, or training for military service.

    I feel it lost sight of the goal: why did the old guys survive longer than healthy young men?

    I think it was because they had gotten thru tough times, in their lifetime, and the healthy young men had not. They folded up. They were so dependent on others. They quit.

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