Shennies and Shenandoahs...

[tdoczi]

Oh, you mean the Blue Ridge Mountains?

c'mon you and i both know that the "blue ridge mountains" refers to a much larger area than what is contained in Shenandoah national park and that that small subset of the blue ridge doesnt have a well known name. masanutten (sp?) right next door, ironically, does. in fact, thats probably what influences people to want to give the next ridge over a name. since that ridge is in shenandoah national park... well you fill in the blanks.

my point still stands, if people want to start calling them "furgelmucowassu mountains" then that will be their name. to stand there and whine about it is silly. the name of a mountain isnt some sort of irrefutable law of physics. nothing in language is.

[rocketsocks]

c'mon you and i both know that the "blue ridge mountains" refers to a much larger area than what is contained in Shenandoah national park and that that small subset of the blue ridge doesnt have a well known name. masanutten (sp?) right next door, ironically, does. in fact, thats probably what influences people to want to give the next ridge over a name. since that ridge is in shenandoah national park... well you fill in the blanks.

my point still stands, if people want to start calling them "furgelmucowassu mountains" then that will be their name. to stand there and whine about it is silly. the name of a mountain isnt some sort of irrefutable law of physics. nothing in language is.

You ever see two geologist go at it over a rock group, I have...it ain't not pretty.

[Sarcasm the elf]

dont know enough about it, but if enough people start referring to springer mountain as "big mikey" for some reason, one day big mikey its name will be.

that these things sometimes occur as accidents doesnt make them less valid.

as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

Much like how people have been incorrectly referring to planned hiker feeds as "trail magic" for so long that it is now arguably the correct term for them and real trail magic probably needs a new term (Pox from the Pox and Puss podcast suggested "trail kismet".)

[tdoczi]

Much like how people have been incorrectly referring to planned hiker feeds as "trail magic" for so long that it is now arguably the correct term for them and real trail magic probably needs a new term (Pox from the Pox and Puss podcast suggested "trail kismet".)

if everyone calls them trail magic then for purposes of effective communication trail magic they are. you cant be the only person who calls a nail a trapplefrap and expect to communicate effectively with anyone.

the OP knows exactly what someone is referring to when they say "shennies" and can offer no other specific alternate name. so the word clearly serves a purpose. i really dont get why things like this bug some people so much.

[Sarcasm the elf]

if everyone calls them trail magic then for purposes of effective communication trail magic they are. you cant be the only person who calls a nail a trapplefrap and expect to communicate effectively with anyone.

the OP knows exactly what someone is referring to when they say "shennies" and can offer no other specific alternate name. so the word clearly serves a purpose. i really dont get why things like this bug some people so much.

Probably for largely the same reason that it bugs you when they complain about it.

[Skyline]

... as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

There are a lot of named mountains in SNP. Just in the North District alone: Compton Peak, North Marshall, South Marshall, Hogback, Pass Mt., and so on. Generically I suppose we refer to the whole enchilada as the Blue Ridge Mountain(s).

But there isn't a place on any map I've seen of SNP where anything is named the Shenandoahs or heaven forbid, The Shennies. The latter is a figment of imagination by a subset of thru-hikers.

There is actually a mountain called Shenandoah Mountain in GWNF near the VA/WV border. A beautiful place, very steep. Here are a few words about it from Wikipedia: "Shenandoah Mountain is a mountain ridge approximately 73 miles long in Virginia and West Virginia. The steep, narrow, sandstone-capped ridge extends from northern Bath County, Virginia to southern Hardy County, West Virginia."

[tdoczi]

But there isn't a place on any map I've seen of SNP where anything is named the Shenandoahs or heaven forbid, The Shennies. The latter is a figment of imagination by a subset of thru-hikers.

or stated differently, where there is no formal name given to something that seemingly (to a certain number of people) needs one, one has been created. if it continues to grow in usage, one day the words "the shennies" might just be printed on a map.

or we can just stop using all names for specific regions and just refer to the appalachian mountains. seeing the reasons why we cant effectively do that should illuminate why it is people would seek to name a specific subset of mountains something.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

dont know enough about it, but if enough people start referring to springer mountain as "big mikey" for some reason, one day big mikey its name will be.

that these things sometimes occur as accidents doesnt make them less valid.

as for people call them the "shenandoahs" maybe if the mountain range in shenandoah national park actually had a name anyone knew, they wouldnt do that.

^ This. We should do this. Let's call it "Big Mikey".

[Starchild]

^ This. We should do this. Let's call it "Big Mikey".

Lil' Mikey would be more like it with Katahdin being Big Mikey.

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

c'mon you and i both know that the "blue ridge mountains" refers to a much larger area than what is contained in Shenandoah national park and that that small subset of the blue ridge doesnt have a well known name. masanutten (sp?) right next door, ironically, does. in fact, thats probably what influences people to want to give the next ridge over a name. since that ridge is in shenandoah national park... well you fill in the blanks.

my point still stands, if people want to start calling them "furgelmucowassu mountains" then that will be their name. to stand there and whine about it is silly. the name of a mountain isnt some sort of irrefutable law of physics. nothing in language is.

Not sure where you're coming from with this statement. The fact is that the broad mountain ridge on which SNP lies is the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains do in fact extend from southern PA all the way into Alabama, but the single ridge on which SNP lies is the Blue Ridge Mountains in north-central Virginia and is not a subset of any sort--it's just the Blue Ridge Mountains. Massanutten Mountain is not within SNP nor is within the Blue Ridge Mountains. Massanutten Mountain is within the Shenandoah Valley and is outside of SNP. Shenandoah Mountain is at the far side of the Shenandoah Valley from SNP and Massanutten and it, too, is within the Shenandoah Valley. The crest of Shenandoah Mountain in fact marks the western edge of the Shenandoah Valley.

So SNP is in the Blue Ridge Mountains, there are no "Shenandoah Mountains", and there are no "Shennies". The principal reason to refer to any geographic area by its proper place name is to make communication more effective by calling them what they are. If not for there being some value in consistency of things like place names, why even bother with them?

And one poster above is certainly right about what happens when geologists get going on place names. Long story short--the Blue Ridge physiographic province does not tie directly to the Blue Ridge geologic province, and in places in both Virginia and NC, the boundaries are tens of miles from one another. We rock geeks are mighty particular, and properly so, as to what to call places and the rock units therein.

AO

[tdoczi]

So SNP is in the Blue Ridge Mountains, there are no "Shenandoah Mountains", and there are no "Shennies". The principal reason to refer to any geographic area by its proper place name is to make communication more effective by calling them what they are. If not for there being some value in consistency of things like place names, why even bother with them?

so if someone deems it necessary, for ease of communication, to refer to all the mountains occupying the ridge line from rockfish gap to chester gap as one single entity (just as the presis, smokies and many many others are) what name do you suggest they use?

as far as i know, there is no name for this set of mountains. in the absence of such a name, people are creating one. thats how things get named, not by some official mountain naming conference thats holds a vote on it and declares it a law or something.

what we are witnessing with the rise of the use of the word "shennies" is people are creating a word to use to refer to all of the mountains contained within shenandoah national park. theres NOTHING wrong with them doing so. get over it.

i imagine once upon a time, there was no "presidential range." there was simply mount washington, mount jefferson, mount adams, etc. eventually, for ease of communication, people started calling them collectively "the presidential range." for obvious reasons. this is normal. what is abnormal and strange is the idea that someone may have been there stamping their feet telling everyone no you cant call them that, that isnt their name. its ridiculous.

if people want to call them "the shennies" they're more than allowed to. and the fact that you know what they are referring to enough to tell everyone that isnt their real name is only proof of how useful and necessary the word really is.

[Lone Wolf]

neel not neels. smoky mtns. not the smokies

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

so if someone deems it necessary, for ease of communication, to refer to all the mountains occupying the ridge line from rockfish gap to chester gap as one single entity (just as the presis, smokies and many many others are) what name do you suggest they use?

as far as i know, there is no name for this set of mountains. in the absence of such a name, people are creating one. thats how things get named, not by some official mountain naming conference thats holds a vote on it and declares it a law or something.

what we are witnessing with the rise of the use of the word "shennies" is people are creating a word to use to refer to all of the mountains contained within shenandoah national park. theres NOTHING wrong with them doing so. get over it.

i imagine once upon a time, there was no "presidential range." there was simply mount washington, mount jefferson, mount adams, etc. eventually, for ease of communication, people started calling them collectively "the presidential range." for obvious reasons. this is normal. what is abnormal and strange is the idea that someone may have been there stamping their feet telling everyone no you cant call them that, that isnt their name. its ridiculous.

if people want to call them "the shennies" they're more than allowed to. and the fact that you know what they are referring to enough to tell everyone that isnt their real name is only proof of how useful and necessary the word really is.

It's easy, and it's certainly nothing to get one's shorts wadded up over. "As far as you know" only means you don't know the correct name of these mountains. It does not mean that there is no name for this particular segment of mountains which SNP lies within. there is such a name. The mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap are the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains physiographic province in that exact area is a single, broad ridge and is a direct extension of the Blue Ridge Mountains to the south of Rockfish Gap and north of Chester Gap. Unlike the Black Mountains near Asheville, NC, standing out as a long and dramatically tall ridge within the 40 to 50 mile width of the Blue Ridge Mountains in southwestern NC, there is no separate body of mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. The ridge is simply the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I'm not losing any sleep if someone wants to call any mountains whatever they wish to, so there's nothing to "get over". I do think that doing so is indicative of a degree of being ill-informed, where those which are well-informed take care to 1) learn what the place names are, and 2) use them correctly.

After all, why don't we just call Georgia "Virginia". Virginia is a much prettier word than Georgia. The reason well-informed people don't do so is that they realize Georgia is Georgia and Virginia is Virginia. Same with the mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. Hell's Belles, you can call them the Alps and it won't bother me a bit. I won't care what it is you're driving at to since to call them the Alps indicates you don't know what you're talking about, but if it makes you feel good, have at it.

AO

[tdoczi]

It's easy, and it's certainly nothing to get one's shorts wadded up over. "As far as you know" only means you don't know the correct name of these mountains. It does not mean that there is no name for this particular segment of mountains which SNP lies within. there is such a name. The mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap are the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains physiographic province in that exact area is a single, broad ridge and is a direct extension of the Blue Ridge Mountains to the south of Rockfish Gap and north of Chester Gap. Unlike the Black Mountains near Asheville, NC, standing out as a long and dramatically tall ridge within the 40 to 50 mile width of the Blue Ridge Mountains in southwestern NC, there is no separate body of mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. The ridge is simply the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I'm not losing any sleep if someone wants to call any mountains whatever they wish to, so there's nothing to "get over". I do think that doing so is indicative of a degree of being ill-informed, where those which are well-informed take care to 1) learn what the place names are, and 2) use them correctly.

After all, why don't we just call Georgia "Virginia". Virginia is a much prettier word than Georgia. The reason well-informed people don't do so is that they realize Georgia is Georgia and Virginia is Virginia. Same with the mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. Hell's Belles, you can call them the Alps and it won't bother me a bit. I won't care what it is you're driving at to since to call them the Alps indicates you don't know what you're talking about, but if it makes you feel good, have at it.

AO

except the term "the blue ridge mountains" refers to more than just the mountains between chester gap and rockfish gap. you know, i know it, most people how have ever heard the term "blue ridge mountains" know it.

is anyone who calls the presidential range the presidential range instead of "the white mountains" also ignorant?

i think youre making too much geological out of this. i get your geological slant to this argument, really. but you do realize the names of most mountains, sets of mountains, mountain ranges, etc have little to do with geology, right?

[tdoczi]

It's easy, and it's certainly nothing to get one's shorts wadded up over. "As far as you know" only means you don't know the correct name of these mountains. It does not mean that there is no name for this particular segment of mountains which SNP lies within. there is such a name. The mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap are the Blue Ridge Mountains. The Blue Ridge Mountains physiographic province in that exact area is a single, broad ridge and is a direct extension of the Blue Ridge Mountains to the south of Rockfish Gap and north of Chester Gap. Unlike the Black Mountains near Asheville, NC, standing out as a long and dramatically tall ridge within the 40 to 50 mile width of the Blue Ridge Mountains in southwestern NC, there is no separate body of mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. The ridge is simply the Blue Ridge Mountains.

I'm not losing any sleep if someone wants to call any mountains whatever they wish to, so there's nothing to "get over". I do think that doing so is indicative of a degree of being ill-informed, where those which are well-informed take care to 1) learn what the place names are, and 2) use them correctly.

After all, why don't we just call Georgia "Virginia". Virginia is a much prettier word than Georgia. The reason well-informed people don't do so is that they realize Georgia is Georgia and Virginia is Virginia. Same with the mountains between Rockfish Gap and Chester Gap. Hell's Belles, you can call them the Alps and it won't bother me a bit. I won't care what it is you're driving at to since to call them the Alps indicates you don't know what you're talking about, but if it makes you feel good, have at it.

AO

or perhaps a better comparison than the presidential range occurs right here in NJ. we have here what we call the kittatinny ridge, or sometimes kittatinny mountains, or sometimes just kittatinny mountain. it runs from the delware water gap to high point. neither of these "boundaries" is in anyway geological. it is part of a larger formation that is called blue mountain in PA and the shwangunk ridge (or shwangunk mtns, or just the gunks) in NY state. geologically it is all the same damn thing. further, in PA, a mountain that is in fact geologically separate is called.... wait for it... kittatinny mountain.

theres no reason why a small segment of what is the blue ridge mountains cant be called "the shennies" even if there is no geological justification for doing so. its just too damn cumbersome to most normal people to say "the portion of the blue ridge mountains contained within the boundaries of shenandoah national park" or "the blue ridge mountains of north-central virginia" or some other such non sense. so theyve made up a name for it that quick. easy to say and recognize.

thats how language works.

[Furlough]

[QUOTE=la.lindsey;2075033]Those "shortcuts" are also known as "nicknames." Shortening "Shenandoah" to "the Shennies" is a particular form of nicknaming known as the diminutive form, which is generally seen as affectionate.

Disclaimer - I am not a descriptive grammarian, nor a language arts or English major, so please pardon my following ill informed curiosity question to you la.lindsey. Is there some accepted form of an English language concept that recognizes or accepts the combining or shortening of names or phrases? As in this topic, the Shenandoah Mountains is the name of this particular mountain chain, and the same is true for the Rocky Mountains. Both are commonly referred to as the Shenandoahs and the Rockies in conversation. So is there some idiom in the twisting, turning strange path that the study of English, grammar, language arts follows that codifies this shortening effect? I guess that is the same question asked twice.

Furlough

[Hikingjim]

The annoyance of "shenandoahs" probably pales in comparison to some of the geographically baffling comments I get on the trail from people when I tell them I'm from Canada, or from "near toronto", etc.

[mikec]

As a fellow Virginian I agree that 'The Shenandoahs' is like fingernails on a chalk board.

[tdoczi]

As a fellow Virginian I agree that 'The Shenandoahs' is like fingernails on a chalk board.

how would you prefer that people refer to the collection of mountains contained within shenandoah national park (and ONLY those mountains, ie "blue ridge mountains" doesnt cut it) when speaking about them then?

[Alleghanian Orogeny]

how would you prefer that people refer to the collection of mountains contained within shenandoah national park (and ONLY those mountains, ie "blue ridge mountains" doesnt cut it) when speaking about them then?

.............I prefer to refer to them in the same way that my Madison County neighbors, everybody else living on either the Piedmont or Valley side, the National Park Service, the National Forest Service, the Department of Defense (several continuation of government underground facilities in the area, including Camp David in the MD Blue Ridge), the Commonwealth of Virginia, the many counties within and adjacent to them, hikers, cyclists, rock climbers, first responders, and travelers of all sorts: They're the Blue Ridge Mountains. Each individual is free to call them what they wish to, but to the people who live, work, and govern there, Blue Ridge Mountains definitely "cuts it". It's the only name any of the folks in the region have ever known, and at least one former resident is mystified as to why it's seen as unacceptable by some.

AO