First AT SOBO Wilderness area - No Blazes

[rickb]

Here is a question I think I know the answer to, but am not 100% sure. I am hoping Peakbagger might weigh in on this.

Is it possible the sign we are discussing now (and others in the immediate vicinity at that odd confluence of trails) are the ONLY signs in the entire WMNF that are located on the AT within a wilderness area?

And here is another:

Is it possible that all (100%) of the white blazing in the WMNF south of Osgood tent site actually lies outside of all the Wilderness areas the AT skirts-- if only by a few feet or yards?

[tdoczi]

From my experience, most trails in the White Mtns. are blazed. Maybe not with the regularity we come to expect on the AT, but still.

they are? what color blaze is the crawford path when its not part of the AT? the old bridal path? falling waters trail? flume slide?

[tdoczi]

The decision not to include reference to the AT strikes me as a parochial decision driven by an old guard (old fart fud) mentality.

or maybe the AT just isnt that important to them and they treat it just like they do all of their other trails?

[rafe]

they are? what color blaze is the crawford path when its not part of the AT? the old bridal path? falling waters trail? flume slide?

Honestly don't know, and can't say. Bridle Path, Falling Waters, Liberty Springs -- I've done those so often that I don't really need or notice the blazes. I assume Liberty Springs is blazed in white, just like the rest of the AT. The ridgeline most definitely is. The others, probably blue or orange or yellow.

Flume Slide, I did once, eons ago. Once was enough. The specific area that we're discussing in this thread, I haven't hiked in ages.

Cascade Brook trail definitely had white blazes. (Did that a couple months back.) As is the AT over Moosiluake.

Page x (in the section titled "Following Trails") of the AMC's White Mountain Guide (I have 27th edition) discusses blazing. "Most hiking trails are marked with paint on trees or rocks." and "Side trails off the AT are usually marked with blue paint."

[rickb]

It's worth noting that trail(s) called the AT in White Moutians connects all 8 of the AMC huts.

In cooperation with the WMNF, the AMC also concentrate caretakers at another 9 or so campsites along the trail(s) called the AT in the White Mountains.

It is important to "them".

[rafe]

Reviewing photos of recent hikes. I've got a clear shot of my hiking partner Julie standing next to a blue blaze on the Webster-Jackson Trail on April 17, 2016. A clear yellow blaze on one of the (non-AT) trails between Lafayette Place and Lonesome Lake on May 16, 2016.

[BonBon]

I thought the whites were confusing. There was definitely grumbling about the signage- and not just by thru-hikers. I took a picture of each map at the first hut and used them frequently, since I didn't bring maps with me. They helped at the intersections with all of the different trail names that did not include AT. If I go through the Whites again I will bring maps. I would love to explore some to the other trails.

[tdoczi]

It's worth noting that trail(s) called the AT in White Moutians connects all 8 of the AMC huts.

also, perhaps more so, worth noting is that 98% of the hut patrons have no clue the AT is there at all and could care not a lick either way.

[rafe]

I just found this "Trail Adopter's Guide" published by AMC.

http://atfiles.org/files/pdf/AMCadopt.pdf

Here's a brief excerpt from P. 22:

The colors to be used on trails in the White Mountain National Forest are listed below. TheCamp Dodge Coordinator will insure that you receive the correct color. There have been examples of
trails blazed with an improper color which then require corrective action. A blaze-color map is available
in the tool shed at Camp Dodge as well. Please confirm the blaze color for your trail during your next
visit.


Colors for Trails

Designated Wilderness areas and above treeline – NO BLAZES!

Appalachian Trail - White

Trails connecting directly with the Appalachian Trail - Blue

All other trails – Yellow

No blazing on rock!

[lonehiker]

Signage in wilderness basically comes down to what administration is in power and their philosophy. I have a guidebook for the CDT in the Wind River range and it specifically mentions signs at a few key junctions yet when I hiked that section several years ago these junctions were not signed. I was able to talk with a ranger shortly after this trip and he confirmed that the current thought was to have minimum signage throughout the wilderness. Another factor is that many areas were signed prior to their designation as wilderness. As these signs are falling down, fading, etc., they may not be replaced. My own personal take on the debate is that designated wilderness areas should be a little more "difficult", for lack of a better term, even if said wilderness is part of a larger trail system.

[rickb]

Keep in mind that in the Whites the AT only passes through a Wilderness Area for a few miles (just trail north of Osgood tentsite)

If I am correct, the AT is sited just outside of any adjacent Wilderness Area for virtually the entire distance it runs in the Whites-- including every above tree line mile.

In otherwords, apart from the intersection mentioned by the OP and a couple others that are very close to it, Wilderness Area protocols simply do not apply.

No?

[egilbe]

Why do people from massachessetts always want to put up signs in the backcountry?

[rafe]

Why do people from massachessetts always want to put up signs in the backcountry?

I dare say, that's a rather sloppy generalization.

[egilbe]

I shouldnt have said always.

[imscotty]

Why do people from massachessetts always want to put up signs in the backcountry?

Maybe because we are still pissed off that the Feds renamed most of Rt. 128

[rickb]

Maybe because we are still pissed off that the Feds renamed most of Rt. 128

With a single sentence you have forced me to reconsider everything I have believed for decades with absolute moral certainty regarding trail naming conventions in the Whites. I am not happy.

[rafe]

With a single sentence you have forced me to reconsider everything I have believed for decades with absolute moral certainty regarding trail naming conventions in the Whites. I am not happy.

Yeah it was a nice even power of two and they had to f it all up.

[peakbagger]

I believe folks are correct that the AT skips the vast majority of the wilderness areas in the WMNF. It gets darn close in several locations and its obvious that the wilderness boundaries were modified to allow existing structures and facilities, Guyot shelter being the most obvious. Unfortunately I would speculate that the Great Gulf being the first of the wilderness areas was not very well planned tor the eventuality of conflict between the AT and the wilderness area rules. One of the unfortunate side effects is the AT crosses into the wilderness area from the AutoRoad to the Osgood trail. The junction in question is second of four in the Great Gulf, the first one is a spur to Lowes Bald spot, then the one in question, the next one AT south is a T junction where the AT turns right and the Madison Gulf trail turns left. The third junction AT south is a T junction where the southbounder comes up a hill and continues on via the Osgood cutoff and has the option to turn right the Great Gulf Trail. Right at the wilderness boundary, there is another confusing junction which some north bounder hikers miss, they continue on via the Osgood trail instead of turning onto the Osgood cutoff. This junction is just outside the wilderness area. I had to edit it few times to get it right and its heck of a lot easier with a map.

At one point the Great Glen private inholding was much larger and I believe it butted up directly to the Great Gulf Wilderness area. Therefore there was not an option to reroute the AT. There was a large land sale to the WMNF at one point and the vast majority of a potential reroute could be on WMNF land outside the wilderness area with the exception of a small strip of the auto road private land. The AT already crosses the road higher up the mountain.

This isn't the only wilderness areas the AT crosses in new England, I can quickly find at least two in VT and believe there are more.

I will note that the WMNF had a very laid back management approach to the wilderness areas for quite a few years but it has been ramping up in the last fifteen years particularly in the Pemi culminating in the removal of a bridge a few years ago. This has been particularly noticeable on the maintenance of trails and more than a few folks including myself have gotten lost as the trails slowly grow in and degrade.

The problem with the Wilderness Act and its subsequent revisions is that it sets the overall concept but there is years of case law and administrative law that actually define what can and cant be done. There currently is another bridge in the Pemi wilderness area slated for removal and the WMNF has used the wilderness act as justification to remove it rather than replace it. Unfortunately for the WMNF there is a provision that structures required for public safety can be allowed. The WMNF is desperately trying to justify that the bridge is not needed for safety. Due to public input they are now going back to the drawing boards and will have to research all alternatives including replacement. If someone could make the argument that white blazes are for safety they may have a case but I expect it would be major battle. NH F&G enforced a policy that all hikers need the ten essentials and one of these essentials is a map. I expect that thru hiker arguing that the trail should be marked to avoid the need for map would also have rough run getting that approved.

[rickb]

The WMNF is desperately trying to justify that the bridge is not needed for safety. Due to public input they are now going back to the drawing boards and will have to research all alternatives including replacement.

That is very good to hear!

As a fan of flat trails in the Whites, that one should be a keeper. While the water is low in this shot, I definitely get why thinking people see it as needed for safety.

image.jpg

[Mountain Mike]

Somewhere in my memorbilia I have two metal PCT markers. On my LASH that include OR & WA at the time a ranger said they were removing them from wilderness areas & if we wanted one, feel free to take it. One was even an old evergreen one.