Rain ingress problem with tarptent contrail

[Secondmouse]

Never said it was only an inch of floor height, it's more like 4-5". But, I don't require a defense so it's all good...

I never said that. I said it failed for lack of another inch of height or something. not familiar with the Contrail but I think the Rainbow has a second position (via a mitten hook) to suspend the floor to address this issue.

anyway seems like a simple enough fix that if enough wheels squeaked they'd get some grease...

[Engine]

I never said that. I said it failed for lack of another inch of height or something. not familiar with the Contrail but I think the Rainbow has a second position (via a mitten hook) to suspend the floor to address this issue.

anyway seems like a simple enough fix that if enough wheels squeaked they'd get some grease...

Sorry, I misunderstood the intent of your post.

[FamilyGuy]

The first measure of a shelter is its ability to protect you from whatever you will encounter weatherwise (within reason, i.e. not falling trees, lightning, a tornado). The second and less important is weight, again within reason (we don't carry canvas wall tents or canvas tipis with woodstoves etc).

Most backpackers consider shelter weight to be the highest qualification but it is not---and so we have this thread on leaking tents.

You have posted that your 9 lb Hilleberg leaks. Why doesn't my 1.2 lb cuben fibre shelter?

[Tipi Walter]

You have posted that your 9 lb Hilleberg leaks. Why doesn't my 1.2 lb cuben fibre shelter?

Get back with me after 800 nights in the thing and we'll talk.

[Hosh]

I guess you could carry 4-6 pounds of tape?

[FamilyGuy]

Get back with me after 800 nights in the thing and we'll talk.

Would 500 be sufficient? Sure has been nice to carry 7.5 lbs less!

[amk]

The reason why we hike is different for everybody. But I would say that "to be in the wilderness as long as possible" is a bit shaky. In fact, one can get a trailer and really stay inside whatever storm is coming, no hilleberg is needed. On the other hand, that does not matter what is hauled by the truck, a hilleberg tent or a trailer, they are both very storm worthy and both weighted about the same. The hilleberg does not have wheels though.


I definitely on the side of those who said the water coming by the side of a tent and into the floor bathtub instead of dripping down on to the ground from the tarp's side edge is the design flaw. It should not happen under any conditions, no matter what the setup was. I would request my money back.


Returning to the why we hike, I would say we still hike, so waiting the storm of life to pass by sitting inside the bomb proofing tent is not the hiking. Break up the camp, and move on is. Chances are, while moving one would hike out of a storm area. So weight of carried shelter kicks in again, the lesser it is the further one can move out of the flooded area.

[Tipi Walter]

The reason why we hike is different for everybody. But I would say that "to be in the wilderness as long as possible" is a bit shaky. In fact, one can get a trailer and really stay inside whatever storm is coming, no hilleberg is needed. On the other hand, that does not matter what is hauled by the truck, a hilleberg tent or a trailer, they are both very storm worthy and both weighted about the same. The hilleberg does not have wheels though.


Returning to the why we hike, I would say we still hike, so waiting the storm of life to pass by sitting inside the bomb proofing tent is not the hiking. Break up the camp, and move on is. Chances are, while moving one would hike out of a storm area. So weight of carried shelter kicks in again, the lesser it is the further one can move out of the flooded area.

I must have a giant engorged tick inside my brain eating up my head but your first paragraph is bonkers. First, you say to be in wilderness as long as possible is a bit shaky, and then you say by hauling out a trailer (presumably on a road with a truck) I could really stay inside whatever storm is coming, no Hillie needed. But you forget, a wilderness has no road access and therefore no truck could haul in a trailer. Do you know what a designated wilderness is? You can't haul a trailer on the Appalachian Trail either. Or on a thousand miles of other trails.

A Hilleberg weighs the same as a trailer? Phew, bizzaro.

Returning to the why we hike, I would say we still hike, so waiting the storm of life to pass by sitting inside the bomb proofing tent is not the hiking. Break up the camp, and move on is. Chances are, while moving one would hike out of a storm area. So weight of carried shelter kicks in again, the lesser it is the further one can move out of the flooded area.


This sounds like the Hike or Camp mantra popular with backpackers who want to carry minimal gear. It's another keyword catchphrase, "you either camp or hike", "you pack your fears", "you must practice proper site selection" etc. Question to Amk---Do you hike? Do you camp? Yes or no. Case closed. Ever pull a zero day on a backpacking trip either in a town or at a shelter? Ever had to sit put in a 2 foot blizzard in your tent and not be able to get out?

[amk]

The gear, tent included, should be goal oriented. If the goal is to be in the wilderness as long as possible, then find a way to put a trailer in your secret place or build a hat equipped with a power generator and a water well there. If you hike, i.e. you place adequate goals such as "tomorrow I should hike up to that place, which is such a mileage from where I am now," then the gear should be lighter and the hiker's fitness should be higher the further that tomorrow place is located. Should the gear put the hiker normally in danger? No. May that occasionally occur under unexpected severe circumstances, yes. If we mind tents, they should not leak or by design provide a way for water into its floor, but they should not promote forming a hernia or getting a muscle strain buy putting excessive load on hiker's shoulders either.

[yaduck9]

so.............this thread was originally about the Tarptent Contrail? A product that is no longer made?

Kind of makes you go hhhhuuummmmm...........................

[Tipi Walter]

The gear, tent included, should be goal oriented. If the goal is to be in the wilderness as long as possible, then find a way to put a trailer in your secret place or build a hat equipped with a power generator and a water well there. If you hike, i.e. you place adequate goals such as "tomorrow I should hike up to that place, which is such a mileage from where I am now," then the gear should be lighter and the hiker's fitness should be higher the further that tomorrow place is located. Should the gear put the hiker normally in danger? No. May that occasionally occur under unexpected severe circumstances, yes. If we mind tents, they should not leak or by design provide a way for water into its floor, but they should not promote forming a hernia or getting a muscle strain buy putting excessive load on hiker's shoulders either.

It's illegal to put a trailer in a "secret place" inside a wilderness area. And anyway, I did the whole Squat on Private Land thing with a Tipi and a woodstove and while it's a great life outdoors I was mostly permanent on a NC ridgetop . . . and legal. It was the good life for the 21 years I did it. Luckily I had to cut a one mile trail with a 1,000 foot elevation gain to reach this ridge and so I kept my backpacking chops up as everything was hauled on my back. But I was stuck at this one spot and wanted to move more and see more wilderness.




If you hike, i.e. you place adequate goals such as "tomorrow I should hike up to that place, which is such a mileage from where I am now," then the gear should be lighter and the hiker's fitness should be higher the further that tomorrow place is located.

All my current backpacking trips meet your standard of packing up the kit and moving everyday, unless caught in storms or blizzards whereby I pull a zero in my tent. In fact, it's important for me to move every day on a trip as it keeps the trip's momentum up and I want to explore more trails. When I start a trip I try and write down every campsite on a calendar and stick to it.

Moving this way you say then that the gear should be lighter . . .than what? A trailer? A generator? Well digging tools? And you obviously don't want to carry a heavy pack as you think maybe it can hurt you or whatever. And it's true that an enormous pack requires careful boot placement and more difficult climbs and slower hiking and shorter mile days. But so what? Like I said, when your food load alone is 50 lbs . . .

[amk]

Walter, I know what real mountain climbing (expedition mountaineering) with heavy pack is, hauling along all these hooks, crampons, ropes, ice axes, provision for a month... Do you know what hiking for a week or two with a lighter pack is?
Anyway, some, many of ultralight gear, shelters, are inadequate, just not functional at all. That happen for the sole reason the gear weight became the only characteristic to consider in the eyes of ultralight crowd running about in flip-flops in California region. But hauling a Hilleberg... Most of the features a hilleberg has are redundant, it would have been entertaining to play with them for zero weight and price penalty, but paying for them and carrying them along, no way. Why? Any general chain store dome type of a tent will have the same main functionality as hilleberg staika will, but it will cost 100 times less and weight for 2 pounds lighter. And there are a bit more expensive big names out there with proper fabrics and other fine stuff... I really do not know why would one consider a hilleberg unless it was given for free and hauled along by a Sherpa.

[MtDoraDave]

HYOY sort of implies that you shouldn't be snarkily judging the way other people do it.

If you don't want to carry a 8 lb tent, don't carry an 8 lb tent. Your hike isn't their hike. If someone expresses an interest in becoming more of a UL hiker or asks for an equipment shakedown to save weight, then make generator and camper jokes about the weight of their tent.

My first hike after deciding to try backpack camping was 2 miles with a crazy heavy backpack... well over 60 lbs, I'd estimate. The next one was at least 10 lbs lighter, as I ditched the standard 8lb dome tent and carried a regular tarp. I couldn't sleep in a tarp. The next trip was in a 2 lb tent.

Do I pack my fears? Sure, to some extent. 2 headlights because I'm afraid one will die and I'll have to night hike without a light. I'm afraid of freezing to death (or getting hypothermia) so I pack more layers than most. But another analogy I heard early on was about sacrifice: Which comforts am I willing to sacrifice for weight savings.

[Tipi Walter]

Any general chain store dome type of a tent will have the same main functionality as hilleberg staika will, but it will cost 100 times less and weight for 2 pounds lighter.

I can understand your unwillingness to purchase or use or carry a Hilleberg, HYOH and all. But what is the main functionality of a tent? To keep us dry and protected in all conditions, to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry. TarpTent enthusiasts gush over their tents, Mt Hardwear Trango users love their bomb shelters, Big Agnes guys drool over their Copper Spurs, MSR types recommend their shelters, and Hilleberg idiots once hooked won't go back to anything else.

No sweat. And I'm not a newbie to using other backpacking tents and I've had many---North Face Tuolumne, North Face Westwind, Eureka Timberline, Mt Hardwear Muir Trail, Mt Hardwear Mountain Jet, Mt Hardwear Hammerhead 3, Mt Hardwear Light Wedge, Integral Designs MK3 (single wall)---and several Hillebergs. And believe it or don't but all those tents have disintegrated over time and use---yet the Hillies are still going strong.

The reason I went with Hilleberg was because on a backpacking trip in August 2005 a pole on my Mt Hardwear Light Wedge tent snapped for no apparent reason and dangit I didn't bring a repair sleeve so I fashioned an in-field pole splint. I was finally tired of your typical tents and their foibles and surprises---broken poles, thin crappy floors (30 denier is too thin for a floor!), unsealable mesh canopies, broken zippers, UV ripped flies, flame retardant stink.

So I explored the 4 season tent market. (Must remember that back in the 1970s all backpacking tents sold were considered 4 season). Nowadays it's a different story as truly designated 4 season tents are heavy and half-difficult to find. But you're right, 95% of all the tents I see on my backpacking trips are not 4 season, stuff like TarpTent and Big Agnes and MSR and LightHeart Gear and others. I prefer to carry and live inside a 4 season tent, period.


Oops, have a nice day.


No problem, just carry the poles like this for the next 10 days and have fun thru the rhodo tunnels.

Btw, to see all the different kind of tents I've seen on my trips, go here---

https://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/keyword/random%20tents/

[FamilyGuy]

You talk about Tarptents and the like as if they will fail at 400 nights in the field. How then are these shelters used for entire thru hikes. Sometimes multiple ones.

And what part of the tent are you suggesting causes catastrophic failure? Using trekking poles as part of the structure of a shelter provides a lot more durable strength than tent poles (as you picture above can attest). So is it the fabric? 0.74 cuben fibre (dyneema threads) has a tear strength similar to that of a black label Hilleberg. Do you mean stitching? There are some UL manufacturers that ensure extremely tight tolerances (MLD comes to mind).

Before you rant about snow, I am referring to 3 season shelters (yes, even in the Rockies) that can take a little snow (I have used an A Frame tarp in some pretty gnarly snow and wind in the shoulder seasons without issue. Ergo I am writing this right now ; ) ). The Tarptent Scarp is as robust as a Hilleberg Soulo, is more suitable to modularity (i.e. it works well as a 3 season shelter without the crossing poles), costs less, and is made in North America.

As such, it is difficult to generalize when you mention Tarptent or MLD, or whatever.

In the end, even it the zipper were to fail on a Tarptent after 400 nights, it can be replaced, cost a third of what comparative Hilleberg would and was much, much lighter to carry. So what is the trade off exactly?

[Hosh]

Guess a base weight of 40#'s doesn't leave room for a repair sleeve.

Backup sleeping pad, watermelon, ground sheet, extra ground sheet check, double check.

You know what Forrest Gump said?

BTW, Henry at TT says he hardly ever sees a damage tent floor in his repair business and doesn't recommend a ground cloth. His Customer's are such wimps, they couldn't find a good thorn patch to setup in.

[amk]

But what is the main functionality of a tent? To keep us dry and protected in all conditions, to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry.

You are living very tough life, sir. See if it can be eased a bit.
"To keep us dry and protected in all conditions" change that to "To keep us dry and protected in conditions normally expected in the area at the season of the hike" BTW, protected from what, I guess it is from weather elements, bugs an such, and not from arrows of wild Indians?
Next - "to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry." Holly s...t !!! That is longer than 3 thru hikes!!! And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.

[MtDoraDave]

You are living very tough life, sir. See if it can be eased a bit.
"To keep us dry and protected in all conditions" change that to "To keep us dry and protected in conditions normally expected in the area at the season of the hike" BTW, protected from what, I guess it is from weather elements, bugs an such, and not from arrows of wild Indians?
Next - "to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry." Holly s...t !!! That is longer than 3 thru hikes!!! And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.

Did someone make you carry a 9 lb tent against your will at some point, and you still harbor a resentment over it?

HYOH and allow others to do the same. You've made your point, repeatedly.

[Tipi Walter]

You talk about Tarptents and the like as if they will fail at 400 nights in the field. How then are these shelters used for entire thru hikes. Sometimes multiple ones.

I met a hard-core backpacking woman in the Big Frog wilderness a couple years ago by the name of Christine Thuermer---the German Tourist---and she uses Tarptents exclusively. And she puts in an incredible amount of bag nights per year. She has an excellent blog post "What Breaks When" which you should read. Check it out---as regards to your 400 nights in the field comment---

http://christine-on-big-trip.blogspo...n-and-why.html

Here's her blurb on TarpTents---

Tents: I have been using Tarptents through almost all my hiking career and I am extremely happy with them. I started with a Virga, then a Virga II followed by a Contrail and now I am using a Rainbow. After a couple of months of use the tent floor will get little holes, but this has never bothered me and I don't use a ground sheet either. The first thing of consequence that will break is the slider of the tent zipper. Depending on what sort of environment you are moving in (lots of sand or not) this will happen after 4 - 6 months of constant use.

The slider will wear out and you will not be able to zip up the tent any more. This is a gradual process and you should act as soon as you experience the first difficulties. Of course this always happens in mosquito country where you depend on your tent being closed.... The problem is quite easy to fix with a needle and thread if you have spare sliders with you - don't leave for a long trip without the appropriate spare sliders and familiarize yourself with how to change a slider. I change sliders up to 3 times before the tent dies of old age!

After about one year of use the tensioners for the guy lines will wear out and/or the guylines itself will become too slippery to tension them anymore. You can work around it by putting little knots in the guylines or using them with their maximum length, but it will be difficult to tension the tent then without restaking. This is not a life threatening problem but a sign that you should think of getting a new tent.

Three times in my long outdoor career a tent pole has broken and I could always repair it with a repair sleeve. This usually happens when you do not insert the tent pole segments into each other correctly before bending them - they will then break at the thin segment end. Do carry a small repair sleeve on long trips! In my experience a Tarptent can easily withstand 1 - 1,5 years of constant (ab)use before it has to be replaced and this is an excellent life expectancy for an UL piece of equipment.

You are living very tough life, sir. See if it can be eased a bit.
"To keep us dry and protected in all conditions" change that to "To keep us dry and protected in conditions normally expected in the area at the season of the hike" BTW, protected from what, I guess it is from weather elements, bugs an such, and not from arrows of wild Indians?
Next - "to last longer than 400 or 500 nights (durability) and to be light enough to carry." Holly s...t !!! That is longer than 3 thru hikes!!! And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.

"Conditions normally expected" for me range from calm days to July microbursts on mountaintops to a series of 0F blizzards with high winds and spindrift to gully washing deluge rainstorms. My heavy tent handles all this crap with ease and no second thoughts or surprises or howls of frustration. And 400 nights later it's still going strong with no floor holes or broken zippers or busted poles or fraying guylines.

And a hilleberg price is around $1000 while a Walmart stuff goes for 20 to 60. Change it biweekly, you will still save, it will withstand a dozen of storms, protect you from mosquitoes and can be easily changed in an unlikely event of breakage, again, lesser by at least 2 pounds to carry.

It's off the wall comments like this which causes me to think you're looking for a Nascar forum and stumbled onto this one. You must know nothing of Walmart tents, like Ozark Trail. I've had two Ozark Trail tents and they are possibly the worst tents ever made. I have to laugh when you say "it will withstand dozens of storms" and this proves you have never used a walmart tent in . . . wait for it . . . dozens of storms.

My first walmart Ozark tent was a 9x12 steel-poled behemoth used for car camping and it leaked like a sieve requiring the purchase of a big blue tarp to cover this single-wall masterpiece from having the inside floor become a lake. My second Ozark Trail tent was a $28 dome piece of crap I took on a backpacking trip to South Dakota in the summer of 2000 and it leaked as usual in the powerful storms so prevalent on the open prairies of South Dakota. And in a windstorm two of its fiberglass poles split and broke so I had to go outside during the worst of it and hold the tent together and upright.

[MuddyWaters]

In dusty conditions, zippers can cease to function in a week unless you wash out in creeks. All zippers, packs included. They will lock up with fine silt like dust.

Northern new mexico in dry season is hard on zippers