are the white mountains getting more crowded??

[DavidNH]

I don't know if it's just me, but it sure seems that the White Mountains (particular the 4000 footers and especially on peaks along the AT) seem to be more crowded now than 10-15+ years ago. I hiked up Mount Moosilauke on Sunday July 24, 2016 and found people everywhere on the summit with more hiking up from all directions. Now yes it was a Sunday and the weather was gorgeous. But still, I remember in years past just a few folks on the top. I have similar impressions on other peaks.

Do you notice more crowds now than in years passed when you hike in the Whites (or other places for that matter)? Maybe it's time to "get off the beaten path" and hike less known hills!

DavidNH

[Wil]

I don't know if it's just me, but it sure seems that the White Mountains (particular the 4000 footers and especially on peaks along the AT) seem to be more crowded now than 10-15+ years ago.

I go back so far that the late 80s/90s+ were a lull.

But yeah it's been steadily getting back. This spring & summer have been mobbed in the Franconia/Zealand/ Presidentials areas. Used to be mid-week you could take 5-6 unimpeded steps on some trails.

[Slo-go'en]

The "trails parking" lot (primary trail head for Madison and Madison Hut) has been spilling out into the road for 1/4 mile either side on a regular basis this summer. There have been nearly 200 cars parked there on some weekends. Pinkham had a "Lot Full" sign out when I drove by at noon time today and all the other trail head parking lots looked full to overflowing. Ton of traffic on the road too. (I had to go to N. Conway to see an Oral Surgeon). So, yea, I think there are a lot of people out right now. I'm afraid they will start to discover the more obscure places to visit and no where will be safe!

[peakbagger]

I have been around the whites since 1987. I find the easy routes to the 4Ks and the 4Ks themselves busier than in the past but the backcountry is less used. When I first moved up, the Great Gulf parking lot would be close to full every weekend, these days 8 or 10 cars is typical. All the designated sites would be full and there would be overflow camping. Whenever I head into the area on a weekend there are open spots at designated campsites that used to be stuffed with tents. In general I see far less folks heading in for multiday backpacks.

Where I find the major increase is winter. When I first did my winter list, we would end up breaking substantial sections of trail every 3 or 4 hikes even on a weekend. For the past 5 winters, its rare to every need to break trail and usually its just due to wind drift.

The Maine section of the National Forest gets a lot less use with the exception of the Baldface Circle trail.

I think cheap gas and the higher speed limit on I 93 also helps. Looks like most troopers wont raise an eyebrow until a car exceeds 80 MPH so getting up to the whites is quicker and cheaper.

Once you get north of RT 2 the use drops down substantially. Nash Stream has a couple of nice summits with very little use. The Mahoosucs has a stretch of above treeline similar to the northern presis that most folks haven't even visited. The loop up the Notch Trail, thru Mahoosuc Notch, up Mahoosuc Arm and down the Speck Pond trail is a loop that is hard to match in the whites. There are also four original NH firetowers up in the north country, two with trails and two without trails (Signal and Whitcomb).

[Tipi Walter]

The "trails parking" lot (primary trail head for Madison and Madison Hut) has been spilling out into the road for 1/4 mile either side on a regular basis this summer. There have been nearly 200 cars parked there on some weekends. Pinkham had a "Lot Full" sign out when I drove by at noon time today and all the other trail head parking lots looked full to overflowing. Ton of traffic on the road too. (I had to go to N. Conway to see an Oral Surgeon). So, yea, I think there are a lot of people out right now. I'm afraid they will start to discover the more obscure places to visit and no where will be safe!

The solution is beyond stump simple---Close the approach roads and parking lots and require tourists to hike in from a much further distance. This will weed out the "goats" and those who don't really want to be there.

Easy car access in the backcountry is a problem everywhere and not only in the Whites. As some scientist wrote, walking has been engineered out of American society.

[tdoczi]

I don't know if it's just me, but it sure seems that the White Mountains (particular the 4000 footers and especially on peaks along the AT) seem to be more crowded now than 10-15+ years ago. I hiked up Mount Moosilauke on Sunday July 24, 2016 and found people everywhere on the summit with more hiking up from all directions. Now yes it was a Sunday and the weather was gorgeous. But still, I remember in years past just a few folks on the top. I have similar impressions on other peaks.

Do you notice more crowds now than in years passed when you hike in the Whites (or other places for that matter)? Maybe it's time to "get off the beaten path" and hike less known hills!

DavidNH

i havent been there in a few years and havent been there that many times, but most times ive been on any 4K in good weather it was crowded, even on a weekday. moosilauke in particular i hiked on a saturday in july and there was easily 75 people on the summit. this was in 2010.

[Engine]

The solution is beyond stump simple---Close the approach roads and parking lots and require tourists to hike in from a much further distance. This will weed out the "goats" and those who don't really want to be there.

Easy car access in the backcountry is a problem everywhere and not only in the Whites. As some scientist wrote, walking has been engineered out of American society.

This is nowhere more true than in the Smokies. It's the most visited national park in the country, but hike a few relatively easy miles into the backcountry and even now you can still go for a few days without seeing anyone else.

[colorado_rob]

It was sure crowded in the whites when we were there in September 2015, but it was our only time there, so hard to compare. I do know our highest Colorado mountains have become mostly packed with peak-baggers, growing like crazy over the last 37 years (since I moved here), so it seems like peak-bagging lists have gained popularity all over the country. We became interested in those 4000ers as well, so.... we'll be back!

Good thing or bad? Mixed emotions; I love the fact that more and more folks are getting up into our mountains for their own sake, and since we finished the 55 CO 14ers a couple decades ago and are working on the much less crowded 13ers (about 600 of them), we can avoid the crowds just fine.

We have a huge, still mostly wide-open country, it's still very easy to enjoy ourselves in solitude!

[Tipi Walter]

We have a huge, still mostly wide-open country, it's still very easy to enjoy ourselves in solitude!

While it's true we can find solitude (on my last 21 day January trip and 18 day February trip I didn't see a single person), human interference (i.e. noise pollution) is always present in the Southeast mountains where I backpack. The below pic gives a hint of how many airline jets pass overhead and over the wilderness areas I travel through. And they are loud!!!

I call them Metal Tube Potatoes (like couch potatoes at home or rolling couch potatoes in cars). I can be comfortably camped in the most remote place in the mountains of TN or NC and right above me a couple thousand feet 200 people pass by on our sky interstates. So we are never alone. And there's no real solitude. (The pic was taken on a backpacking trip to Bob Stratton Bald in TN).

[colorado_rob]

While it's true we can find solitude (on my last 21 day January trip and 18 day February trip I didn't see a single person), human interference (i.e. noise pollution) is always present in the Southeast mountains where I backpack. The below pic gives a hint of how many airline jets pass overhead and over the wilderness areas I travel through. And they are loud!!!

I call them Metal Tube Potatoes (like couch potatoes at home or rolling couch potatoes in cars). I can be comfortably camped in the most remote place in the mountains of TN or NC and right above me a couple thousand feet 200 people pass by on our sky interstates. So we are never alone. And there's no real solitude. (The pic was taken on a backpacking trip to Bob Stratton Bald in TN).

True enough about those damn airplanes, but get up to Alaska sometime and see how many you see. Even in CO or other western states, you're generally far enough from their takeoff/landing place (ie: they are high enough) that at least you don't hear them, only see them shredding the sky. And, sometimes not even that if the humidity is low enough, a common thing out here, they don't even have contrails.

But I hear ya.

[Tipi Walter]

Yes, we are circled by airports in Atlanta (VERY BUSY), Chattanooga, Knoxville and Asheville. All my backpacking occurs near or between these nasty and useless Hubs. And they never stop roaring overhead until between 2am and 8am, then they're back in hateful business.

[colorado_rob]

Yes, we are circled by airports in Atlanta (VERY BUSY), Chattanooga, Knoxville and Asheville. All my backpacking occurs near or between these nasty and useless Hubs. And they never stop roaring overhead until between 2am and 8am, then they're back in hateful business.

So, given that I'm sure you won't ever fly anywhere because of your hatred for airlines, maybe drive (or hitch!) elsewhere sometime and add some diversity to your backpacking locations? Just a silly thought.

[Tipi Walter]

Well, I spent 4 years in the USAF so I created my own noise karma and am now getting justified payback. We flew everywhere in C-130s and they are loud.

But currently I see most all airline flights as frivolous travel in a country with a lot of bored people with too much money on their hands (to buy tickets). Ergo Noise pollution. Air pollution.

[colorado_rob]

Well, I spent 4 years in the USAF so I created my own noise karma and am now getting justified payback. We flew everywhere in C-130s and they are loud.

But currently I see most all airline flights as frivolous travel in a country with a lot of bored people with too much money on their hands (to buy tickets). Ergo Noise pollution. Air pollution.

Yeah, I worked at WPAFB for three years right next to the flight line and listened to those C130's and KC135's.... the military has different noise standards on their planes. I don't blame them; performance is important.

Anyway, guilty as charged on that last point, not TOO much money though, nor really bored because we hike all the time, but airfares are so damn cheap these days, why not see the entire USA vs. hiking the same place over and over again? Seeing and enjoying the whole country (and world) is what you call "frivolous"? Fine, bring on the frivolity! Life's way too short to spend the rest of it in a 100 mile radius.

This all being said, we prefer road trips, whenever practical. Getting ready for a 4000+ mile one here real soon, with a bunch of multi-day backpack loops all over the upper Midwest. And we'll use much more fuel and create much more pollution than we would have flying. Good thing our air is much cleaner these days than it was 40 years ago, makes me feel less guilty.

[Tipi Walter]

Life's way too short to spend the rest of it in a 100 mile radius.

This all being said, we prefer road trips, whenever practical. Getting ready for a 4000+ mile one here real soon, with a bunch of multi-day backpack loops all over the upper Midwest. And we'll use much more fuel and create much more pollution than we would have flying. Good thing our air is much cleaner these days than it was 40 years ago, makes me feel less guilty.

Regarding your quote, "Life's way too short to spend the rest of it in a 100 mile radius"---I think of this quote from Ramakrishna, holy man of India---

"Travel in all the four quarters of the earth, yet you will find nothing anywhere. What ever there is, is only here."

As far as traveling and backpacking, well, I have several friends who do the same and want to explore vast areas not available in the East. Think Glacier NP and the Sierras and Tetons. I even once hitched to Nevada City Calif from NC in '89 and pulled a 20 day backpacking trip near the Yuba River. Flew home from Sacramento after hitching out of Nevada City. Walked up to the airline ticket counter with nothing except cash (and a fully loaded North Face backpack) and paid $500 for a one way flight east. Had a 20 hour wait.

But I think you're wrong about car pollution vs jet. A single jet on a normal flight produces the equivalent exhaust of 3,000 cars driven during the same time. Thing is, an airplane cannot hold 3,000 people.

Further, backpacking in a 100 mile radius encompasses a huge amount of territory and I should know as I've backpacked all of it. Thing is, every trail is new no matter how often it is hiked, and it's different in one direction and new in the other. And it's different in 12 different ways depending on the 12 months of the year.

It's more of an attitude-change whereby we change our headgear and find newness and nourishment in whatever backcountry we visit no matter how often. I am easily pleased by Miss Nature. Heck, I used to enjoy stealth camping in town cemeteries and behind grocery stores and near towns in bushes. As long as I'm out and getting my bag nights; consider me a Bag Knight.

[colorado_rob]

But I think you're wrong about car pollution vs jet. A single jet on a normal flight produces the equivalent exhaust of 3,000 cars driven during the same time. Thing is, an airplane cannot hold 3,000 people.

Not sure where you get your numbers, a quick search here:

http://www.yaleclimateconnections.or...ng-vs-driving/

shows that the total pollution from driving vs. flying is very close in terms of passenger miles. Basically, BTU's (energy use) per passenger mile is slightly lower now for jet planes, but pollutants per BTU is slightly higher, the net result, pretty equal, it seems. Only a first look, but completely dispels your 3000-person-equivalent assertion. I feel better now about our big upcoming road trip!

I want to be glad for you that you are content in you own little tiny world, but I'm sorry, it just makes me sad to see a fellow outdoor lover so constrained to one little spot on our big, wide wonderful world. I project my ideas of what is a good time on others, a character flaw to be sure. Prime example of HYOH if ever I saw one! I do look forward to visiting your little world again (I passed by once on the AT); a recent post you mentioned some wilderness area that we plan on checking out some fall/winter (I can't deal with your summer heat!).

OP: sorry for the big thread drift! I'll stop now.

[rickb]

One thing great about the Whites (still) is that you can have a completely private camping experience (with a least a feeling of real wildness) by walking a couple hundred feet away from most trails.

Of course that is a bit harder along stretches of the AT but its a big forest.

Most people tend to feel compelled to sleep within sight or earshot of others, but you certainly don't need to do so in the Whites.

If you want a feeling of solitude while hiking on even the most heavily travelled sections, you can still have the mountain all to yourself for several hours at least-- just so long as you start walking at 5 AM or so.

[peakbagger]

My standard rule is plan to start hiking to land up on the summit prior to 11:00 AM. Most folks plan to summit for lunch so by heading out early you are ahead of the crowds. The animals also seem to schedule their days around the crowds, I have had early hikes on Lincoln Woods trail and encountered lots of wildlife in the early AM. Early hikes also gets me off the summits in the afternoon when showers or thunderstorms form. The trade off is the inevitable "excuse me" as I am headed down the trail to pass folks heading up. I also end up answering "how much longer" queries and usually double my time heading down the mountain. I end up extending the multiplier as its gets later in the day.

The parking lots usually have plenty of spaces in the early AM. At the lots that service AMC huts, folks going to the huts tend to start later in the day to be at the hut before supper. The lots al already full with day hiker cars so the hut folks end up parking 1/4 of a mile down the road. This leads to phenomena in the evening where the parking lot is near empty with all sorts of cars parked 1/4 of a mile away.

[Deadeye]

It's more everywhere. Combination of more people, more awareness and participation, etc. In the 70's, you could climb many places in the Whites & Greens & Adirondacks in winter and be breaking track all the way. No longer. Get used to it, or start taking lesser known trails to lesser known peaks, or no trails at all, if solitude is part of your reason for getting out.

[Puddlefish]

I far more enjoy hiking the smaller mountains and trails outside the Whites. I won't head up the Rte 93 corridor on a weekend for anything. I hate crowds.