Enlightened Equipment vs Hammock gear quilts

[Just Bill]

Thx JB!! Loads of great info! Since hearing great things about both I figured I'd go with the cheapest....EE enigma 20 in std/wide is lil better price including pad straps and storage sack....also like the fabric/color options better. Timing is tight but they said should be able to pull off. At 5'11" being a back/stomach sleeper I'm at the cut off for reg-long....what are your thoughts....reg vs long...I use the large xlite or large xtherm.....


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Stomach sleepers tend to wash a bit (with your toes pointed the footbox gets longer)
Side sleepers can get away with a bit shorter quilt vs stomach and back sleepers.

But yer specific quilt- for a colder weather quilt go with a long. (I'm 5'10")
My standard quilt is a bit longer than EE because it's nice to have a few inches of quilt to roll over as a draft collar in general.
Their long is 7' if I remember right- and in colder weather especially- if you get a bad night the extra length can be used to form a hood that will let you push the temp rating a good 5* or more if you curl up a bit at little to no weight penalty. It's an ounce or so of prevention lighter than any other option- it also gives you a bit more down to shake down in a real emergency if you need to "overstuff" the quilt and ball up into a shortened quilt.

Not to confuse things too much- but if going wide long in EE- it might be worth a quick look at the convert series. When going below freezing there is still a lot to be said for being able to zip up completely and the extra ounce or two may buy you a lot of versatility for a relatively expensive piece of gear.

[Hikingjim]

I just bought a burrow 20. I borrowed one a few months ago and liked it, and I was thinking about the EE rev but when I e-mailed them they said "5-7 weeks was the absolute soonist", so I had to go burrow to make sure I had my quilt in Canada by mid-sept when I need it

[cmoulder]

I'm 5-9 and got the long (as well as wide) and am happy I did so. Still it weighs only 22 oz (626g), which includes straps. Mine is the simple 800fp GDD (grey duck down) with 10D material inside and out. I have yet to discover any significant difference between goose and duck down.... if they had told me it's goose I'd be none the wiser, based on performance.

Regarding the wait for EE, man that's getting really insane. I guess I was very lucky when I bought mine because it was in stock and available immediately, and I snapped it up right then and there.

[Just Bill]

I'm 5-9 and got the long (as well as wide) and am happy I did so. Still it weighs only 22 oz (626g), which includes straps. Mine is the simple 800fp GDD (grey duck down) with 10D material inside and out. I have yet to discover any significant difference between goose and duck down.... if they had told me it's goose I'd be none the wiser, based on performance.

Ducks simply don't naturally produce fine enough down to make higher fill power down.
650 (or so) fill duck down vs goose down- there is no functional difference besides the species.
850 duck down- doesn't exist in any measurable quantity so it's geese or nothin.


Although score a point for team duck; as the best down on the planet is Eider duck down- you have to murder an eskimo or rob a bank to buy it- so probably will not ever find it's way into any of our kits.

[Just Bill]

Oh and white vs grey down is cosmetic only...
Really only a recent thing as some of the newest shell material is so thin that you can see the down right through it and some fancy folks buying their $500 puffy to the mall in see thru hot lemon banana don't like the grey bits mottling up their radical color palette.

[saltysack]

Stomach sleepers tend to wash a bit (with your toes pointed the footbox gets longer)
Side sleepers can get away with a bit shorter quilt vs stomach and back sleepers.

But yer specific quilt- for a colder weather quilt go with a long. (I'm 5'10")
My standard quilt is a bit longer than EE because it's nice to have a few inches of quilt to roll over as a draft collar in general.
Their long is 7' if I remember right- and in colder weather especially- if you get a bad night the extra length can be used to form a hood that will let you push the temp rating a good 5* or more if you curl up a bit at little to no weight penalty. It's an ounce or so of prevention lighter than any other option- it also gives you a bit more down to shake down in a real emergency if you need to "overstuff" the quilt and ball up into a shortened quilt.

Not to confuse things too much- but if going wide long in EE- it might be worth a quick look at the convert series. When going below freezing there is still a lot to be said for being able to zip up completely and the extra ounce or two may buy you a lot of versatility for a relatively expensive piece of gear.

Thx again...the covert is $100 more....I'm maxed out...Between the new GG gorilla $195.00 and new quilt ($277) I'm done....I did shed over 1.75lbs from the kit.......


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[saltysack]

I just bought a burrow 20. I borrowed one a few months ago and liked it, and I was thinking about the EE rev but when I e-mailed them they said "5-7 weeks was the absolute soonist", so I had to go burrow to make sure I had my quilt in Canada by mid-sept when I need it

Yep I only have lil over 5 weeks but they said in 2 weeks they would know if was going to be ready...I can cancel and order the burrow or worst case I can abuse the great REI return policy....


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[cmoulder]

Oh and white vs grey down is cosmetic only...
Really only a recent thing as some of the newest shell material is so thin that you can see the down right through it and some fancy folks buying their $500 puffy to the mall in see thru hot lemon banana don't like the grey bits mottling up their radical color palette.

Once it gets up to 800 fp, that's enough for me... and yes, the grey bits can be seen clearly, but again it doesn't bother me. Funny, I was going to mention Eider (fp up to 1200 ci/oz IIRC) if anyone started pooping on my duck, lol.

[DuneElliot]

Once it gets up to 800 fp, that's enough for me... and yes, the grey bits can be seen clearly, but again it doesn't bother me. Funny, I was going to mention Eider (fp up to 1200 ci/oz IIRC) if anyone started pooping on my duck, lol.

Eider down is actually some of the best you can get.

[saltysack]

Oh and white vs grey down is cosmetic only...
Really only a recent thing as some of the newest shell material is so thin that you can see the down right through it and some fancy folks buying their $500 puffy to the mall in see thru hot lemon banana don't like the grey bits mottling up their radical color palette.

Thoughts on 850 down vs 950?

Just ordered the 20 enigma long/wide 20.79 oz in 850 or 19.22 in 950 $70 more.....thoughts...


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[Secondmouse]

Ducks simply don't naturally produce fine enough down to make higher fill power down.
650 (or so) fill duck down vs goose down- there is no functional difference besides the species.
850 duck down- doesn't exist in any measurable quantity so it's geese or nothin.


Although score a point for team duck; as the best down on the planet is Eider duck down- you have to murder an eskimo or rob a bank to buy it- so probably will not ever find it's way into any of our kits.

my dad has an old canvas Eddie Bauer coat made with Eider down. I mean like 50 years old. do you think there's any hope that recovering this down to use in another project would still be worthwhile?..

[Hikingjim]

Thoughts on 850 down vs 950?

Just ordered the 20 enigma long/wide 20.79 oz in 850 or 19.22 in 950 $70 more.....thoughts...


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950 is not a very cost effective way to save 1.5 oz, but if you have cash to spare and want the lightest possible, then go for it

[saltysack]

950 is not a very cost effective way to save 1.5 oz, but if you have cash to spare and want the lightest possible, then go for it

Yep agree....think ill stick w 850...I've never had anything over 850....


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[Just Bill]

Short answer- the highest I would spend my personal money on is 850 fill.

Long answer- (cause I jest cant help meself):

There are many (outside the us) who debate whether fills of 900 or more actually exist.

The American's general fascination with specs (horsepower in cars, sports stats, take your pick) has led to a bit of a push here as well. The down is "conditioned" for the test, which generally means fluffed, rested for 24 hours, tested at the most optimal humidity, temp, etc. to produce the best possible results. Some folks across the pond are not too impressed with this method- though I'm not aware of anyone taking a 950 fill American down and say testing it to EN standards and re-rating it. Though I'm not enough of a geek to have looked too hard.

The mechanics of sorting down (and larger volume used overall) have led to more of the "perfect" clusters being separated out. So there is an improvement overall in the industry in producing (or rather extracting) the best possible down with little to no feathers. Basically; there are real advancements in down production in the last decade- mainly as a result of us damn yankees and our spec sheets.

Now in the real world...
You won't ever be likely to launder, fluff, rest, and condition your down for optimal results.
So the odds of you actually achieving 900+ fills in anywhere but basecamping the desert southwest are very low.
The finer and finer the clusters, well like any finer thing, it becomes more sensitive to the environmental humidity and how it's treated in general. Like say crushing it and crossing your fingers it remains strong enough to take it day after day.

It is interesting to note: the science behind the Primaloft down blend is that the primaloft portion bounces back (even when wet) to help re-loft the down after it being packed. Which is more or less the role that all those nasty, stiffer feathers played that were so carefully sorted out of the pure down clusters to get a nice loft in the lab. Basically meaning- the damn bird has outer feathers (no good), inner feathers (structure) and down (clusters) and each has a role to play.

Now the only reason to use a high priced fill- is to obtain the highest possible performance on a spec sheet. So odds are decent that your 900+ wonder piece was carefully calibrated to use the exact proper amount of down with little or no fudge factor. Which turned out not to work so great overall in the real world in large pieces like sleeping gear, so whether by choice or not, we started talking about adding overfill(overstuff) back into the design or as an add-on at checkout. Either to resolve this performance gap from lab to field, or to cover your butt if you were a vendor and wanted to ensure your bag met it's rating once it left your shop and ventured out into the real world.

So... if you plan to even slightly abuse your bag by using it and have the indignity to use it for more than a few days at a time, you may then reach a conclusion:

If I use 10 ounces of 900 fill (9000cuin) and need to add an ounce overfill (at my own expense) I now have 11 ounces of down filling 9000 cuin of shell at considerable expense.

So if I simply put 10.6 ounces of 850 fill down (9000/850) to fill the same 9000cuin shell;
Aren't I actually ahead 11.4g in weight, with a bag filled with fairly stout stuff not likely to fall apart on me at the first tough day trapped in my pack?
Don't I have now have enough money left over to buy a patty melt, a handful of pints and still leave a generous tip for Owen at the Inn at Long Trail?
Can't I simply enjoy said lunch without needing to sit in the laundry closet while I carefully dry my wonder bag in the dryer so it can "recover" enough to get a decent night or two out of it before it withers on the trail once more?

So yar- opinion only really- but 800/850 is plenty fer me. There's Guinness to drink and it's fillpower is never in question.

[cmoulder]

So yar- opinion only really- but 800/850 is plenty fer me. There's Guinness to drink and it's fillpower is never in question.

I always thought I was right, and this is as good an explanation as any I've read as to why.

I had a +20-yr-old Campmor down bag that IIRC was about 650 fp, and when I donated it to my friend's Scout troop it was still performing quite well. It will probably last another 20 years, but I got into UL and quilts and all that and just didn't need it any more.

[left52side]

It seems that the majority of responses have been aimed at EE,and I myself have found that there customer service was great.
I just could not wait the 15 weeks to order one of there quilts but plan on ordering A summer quilt or something from them .
I do however have A hammock gear burrow 20 that I purchased and to my surprise it was sent to me A week earlier than expected.(A day over two weeks)
I had so many questions on my quilt and purchasing it and I will say the folks at hammock gear were top notch as well.
The quilt arrived to me and so far it is absolutely amazing. It looks sharp and is well made .
Lofts great so far and seems to be very comfortable .
The weight on my 20 burrow in the stuff sack with the pad attachments and short wide length is 20.76 ounces.
So if you haven't made up your mind on the EE yet do not count these guys out for craftsmanship and customer service.