paper maps vs cellphone apps

[bemental]

Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

It's called resection, and it requires at least two known points.

It is possible, but in all honesty it requires having a relatively good idea or where you're located at already, and the ability to see those known points. It's reliable, if the other points are known, but it takes good terrain association skills and relating what you see to what's on a map, something most people don't have.

That being said, resection is accurate, if you are correct in identifying your landmarks. Otherwise you'll be completely incorrect and place yourself somewhere else entirely.

Also, don't forget about converting between your grid and magnetic declination That'll throw you off as well.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_resection

[jefals]

A phone working perfectly at all time still has a tiny screen. It is important to have both local detail and the big picture on one display. That tales some square footage. Maybe someday big, fold-able displays for e-maps will come along. I'll stick with paper. At least until then.

Have you seen any of the guthook trail apps? If you have, and still feel the same, that's fine. But if you are able to download one of their free demo versions, and check it out, it might change your mind.

[fiddlehead]

Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

Sometimes they old timers forget about the time they were in a whiteout and their paper map did them no good at all if they weren't sure where they were.
I've tried maps in a whiteout: Forget it.
Ask an airplane pilot, or ships captain which they prefer?
The new Via Dinarica trail doesn't even have maps. Just an app.
I'm taking my Garmin (withe the trail on it) AND my phone, with the app. (and use airbnb when I get to towns)
Just sayin.

I was on a 15 million dollar yacht a few weeks ago and the captain was showing me around.
When we were in the bridge with it's wall to wall monitors, guages, and charts spread out with a protractor and dividers laying there, he told me "all this is for show, I use my phone more often than any of it!"

The world is changing. Go with it.

[Dan Roper]

For some reason, this is a topic that seems to bring out the snarky side in WB contributors.

[OldGringo]

For some reason, this is a topic that seems to bring out the snarky side in WB contributors.

Real men use maps and compasses..... Those new fangled electronics are trouble...


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[Dan Roper]

I prefer paper maps, but I don't care what other hikers use.

[Skyline]

Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne



Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Well sure, but this is a website by and for "A Community of Appalachian Trail Enthusiasts," or so it says at the top of every page.

[Feral Bill]

Have you seen any of the guthook trail apps? If you have, and still feel the same, that's fine. But if you are able to download one of their free demo versions, and check it out, it might change your mind.

I guess I should take a look. Thank you.

[AfterParty]

Are you saying that a good land navigator can point a compass at a distant mountain or tree, and get a perfectly accurate reading from the exact center of that landmark? Will he know his exact declination from his location at this particular date/time/hour/minute/second? If not, he's not going to be as accurate as a GPS...

In the army its called land Nav. Get ten grids and find a little numbered sign. Some times the signs are close together so you better have plotted everything correctly.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

This thread made me think about the exact same thing.

I really do wonder how many people take the "you don't need a map" advice that is so commonly given about about A.T. hiking on the internet at face value, I also wonder how many of them make the mistake of generalizing this sort of advice without realizing how unique the A.T. is in this respect. Seeing as the A.T. is the most popular hiking trail in the US I really do think that giving this sort of advice to new hikers is a disservice since it both sets them up to not have the necessary skills needed to hike remote trails as well as setting a false expectation about what is needed to safely navigate in the back country.

For the record and in response to Skyline's comment above, I do see this as a bigger problem on other sites than I do on Whiteblaze. I see this bad advice especially often on Facebook hiking groups where the people asking questions often have no hiking or backwoods experience at all.

[jefals]

I was on a 15 million dollar yacht a few weeks ago and the captain...

Hey, you have friends with 15 million dollar yachts? I'm gonna start hangin out wit u, ok bud? 😆

[jefals]

I guess I should take a look. Thank you.

Yes sir. I guess, with a demo version the only thing you won't see is the gps tracking feature which shows your location. There's a red line showing the trail and a blue dot showing your location. Go 10 feet off trail and you will know it.

[jefals]

For some reason, this is a topic that seems to bring out the snarky side in WB contributors.

Real men use maps and compasses..... Those new fangled electronics are trouble...


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Hey, this reminds me of that story, I think it was Steve Jobs that said his mother said to him, "Computers? Who would ever want one of those"!

[Jeff]

The ATC reports a pretty steep decline in map sales. Some point to the cost of an entire set of maps, but I believe online forum comments that "no map is needed" is a big reason sales have dropped.

[Deacon]

IMHO, maps really shine when you want to know your relative position to some feature or landmark that's off the trail, that perhaps you would like to visit, such as a town or a monument. Other than that, as said by others, I really don't care where exactly I am on the trail.

What I do care about is where the trail is if I should stray off it, which seems to happen to me frequently. This summer, I was coming down the AT off Mt. Minsi into Delaware Water Gap. The trail is about 30 feet wide at that point and well traveled by day hikers. That wide trail goes straight down the mountain but the AT cuts off to the side and I missed it. After 20 minutes I realized my error. Not wanting to backtrack, I checked my position with Guthook's app. I was able to follow along, cut across on a little side trail back to the AT.

Can electronics fail? Sure, but I don't use it 99.99% of the time, but when I need it it's there. It has saved me several times.


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[Lyle]

.
But the difference is, the phone app has gps, so it tells you if you're off the trail.

If a person needs GPS to follow and stay on the AT, they REALLY should not be hiking in the back country. The main problem with apps like Guthook, or whatever it's called, is that now even fewer hikers will even carry a map, let alone learn how to read it.

[Heliotrope]

I have the gut hook app. And it's really wonderful. And as wonderful as the technology is, it has an inherent flaw. The devices will always be vulnerable to damage or battery failure. I can never bring myself to leave the maps behind. The other issue is how much battery power is consumed using the app. And I am reluctant to start carrying around battery packs to keep my phone charged. So the app will remain a backup to the maps.

A nice feature of the maps is that you can enjoy studying them in your tent at night and see where you have been, where you are going, discover interesting features of the landscape, etc. without worrying about draining the battery. Better than a book to me.


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[peakbagger]

One thing folks forget about many GPS maps is the quality of data. Trail clubs get revenue from selling updated maps. They are non profits and the money they net after paying for the maps pays to maintain the trails. This is a significant source of revenue for many trail clubs and I expect ATC (but haven't looked at the budget lately). Therefore there is a system that works, the trail clubs get revenue, a portion thereof goes to update maps with the latest information and the remainder of the revenue pays to maintain the trails. I would expect that Guthook and other map developers are using the database of the trail alignment released by ATC, how does this translate to revenue for ATC or the trail clubs?. ATC does not issue trail alignments for blue blaze connecting trails, where does this data come from? In many cases those blue blazes revert to maps in the public domain or stealing information from other copyrighted sources.

Although there are attempts to create collaborative open map data bases, they frequently are going to have gaps and in order to fill out the maps, the general approach is to default back to public domain sources. Anyone that has used Google Maps to look up the AT route most likely has found places where the location of the AT shown is not the current alignment.

On a recent bushwhack we decided to veer off a bearing course and elected to head over to an existing trail. One of the participants turned on her navigation ap on her IPhone, it showed the trail immediately adjacent to a stream bed. Rather then following the terrain we elected to head straight to the trail. At some point we crossed the streambed and the ap as well as the USGS map indicated we were right on top of the trail. After some searching, one of the group found the trace of what looked to be a herd path. It was in the general direction we wanted to go so we followed it. It was loaded with old blowdown and would appear and disappear. After awhile we did find evidence it was an old trail but to someone in trouble or in the dark it was not something easy to follow. We eventually intersected with the actual trail and made it back to the car.

When I got back home I did some research, we were using the USGS map which was published in 1997, this particular series of maps in the Whites used a much older trails database which in some cases show abandoned trails and trail alignments that haven't been accurate for 10 to 15 years prior to the USGS map date. Its apparent that the GPS ap had the USGS alignment. The AMC map ( a copyrighted source funded by purchasers) had the correct alignment. Apparently at some point a 1.5 mile section of trail was relocated. Based on my observations of the old route it had been easily 25 years since it was last used.

So what is going to replace the source of funding and incentive to keep up to date and accurate trail alignments? Is Guthook and other app developers writing a check to the ATC and other trail maintaining clubs to update the trail database? I expect that most hikers could give a darn about how the maps get updated but I bet most have an expectation that the maps on their aps will be accurate and that's not the case currently with other than the major trail alignment.

[MuddyWaters]

GPS, especially phone GPS, is a tool.
It's only ONE tool

And it's made of glass, not water proof (usually), and has a battery that lasts one day . Gee, inspires confidence?
All you have to do is drop a pos smartphone on rocks to render it unusable. Both my kids have done it several times. Yeah, they have $80 cases. Funny how it always happens when not in them.


If you can follow trail, you don't need map on daily basis.

Maps ans compass on AT are for when you do need them, when everything has gone wrong.

[Leo L.]

Can't speak for the AT as I've never been there, but on my desert hikes in the Middle East, as well as on my recent local hikes, smartphone GPS proofed to be a miraculous thing.
I do take care about my smartphone itself (which is waterproof btw), as well as about the battery life.
For my desert hikes this took place in areas where no maps of any reasonable quality are available, so I'm working with Google Earth exclusively (that had been paper printouts in the older times, now running GE in cache mode on the smartphone - just great!), and on my local hikes I'm using an app that contains the official map of Austria, which is "the mother of all maps" for our area. Accurate down to the single tree. Really love it.
So while I still carry a paper map as a backup, I would never step back from the smartphone navigation.