paper maps vs cellphone apps

[Traveler]

Sometimes they old timers forget about the time they were in a whiteout and their paper map did them no good at all if they weren't sure where they were.
I've tried maps in a whiteout: Forget it.
Ask an airplane pilot, or ships captain which they prefer?
The new Via Dinarica trail doesn't even have maps. Just an app.
I'm taking my Garmin (withe the trail on it) AND my phone, with the app. (and use airbnb when I get to towns)
Just sayin.

I was on a 15 million dollar yacht a few weeks ago and the captain was showing me around.
When we were in the bridge with it's wall to wall monitors, guages, and charts spread out with a protractor and dividers laying there, he told me "all this is for show, I use my phone more often than any of it!"

The world is changing. Go with it.

Actually the world isn't changing that much, the FAA and Nautical regulations still have language that require charts to be used (multi engine and commercial use aircraft and professionally operated vessels over 39.4 feet or over 1600 tonnes). As a pilot, I like the convenience of the GPS, but having experienced electrical problems in flight, GPS outages that can occur, and device failures, I always have a chart in my lap and routinely check my position on the chart during flight. Most all the pilots I know who fly their own aircraft have similar discipline. If the yacht captain is a professional with various ratings, he was probably right in saying he used his GPS phone gizmo most of the time to check on course, etc. But you can be sure the bridge watch had charts out not just for display of impressionable passengers, but as a navigational tool coupled with the electronics. As with aviation, most long distance travel requires the use of larger charts for a reasonably accurate view of the course and any changes that have been made. Anything not necessary for the safe conduct of the voyage/flight is usually not just laying around given cockpit and bridge resource/space management needs. If they are laying about and not being used for reference its not a very professional demonstration of good seamanship.

As pointed out, GPS is a tool that really depends on where you are and what you are doing that dictates if having either a map, a GPS, or both is a good idea. FWIW, I tend to carry maps all the time, with GPS as a back up tool on unfamiliar terrain. As Elf points out, the AT is a unique, well marked and worn trail that GPS is fairly well suited for and is often said to be all one needs. However, that advice may not serve well on other trails that are less worn, marked, and maintained. An electronic failure of any cause could prove to be a real problem.

[soulrebel]

Both. Redundancy. The maps are less likely to get destroyed and don't require power. However, GPS or smartphone is quick and easy. Downside-you might need to carry 2 backup batteries, backup cable, and possibly a small solar panel if you want to rely on it. Even then you should probably have a map of the general area, a photo, drawing, or real map. Thankfully, most trails are well-marked and if you have good supplies, gear, and general fitness 99% of the time things are good to go. Mostly, it's about ATTITUDE when things do go awry.

[Puddlefish]

Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

This was posted on the general forum under the APPALACHIAN TRAIL category. Yes, obviously you take different gear on different hikes.

I've always brought a map and compass hiking through the woods of NH. The trails near me at least often cross and have a variety of mismatched and outdated blazes and signage. I've used those maps and compasses, never in an emergency situation, but just to generally know where I was, and to avoid backtracking to the trail head.

I started the AT with maps, but after 300 miles I sent them home. The few times I wandered down a blue blaze by mistake, I was able to figure it out and easily turn around. The trail is very well marked and distinctive in how much traffic there is on it. I often went 200 feet off trail to camp or brown blaze, and felt confident I knew exactly how to return to the trail. Your mileage may vary depending on your own sense of direction and the conditions.

I used the Guthook app, but never felt I really needed it for navigation on the AT. It was more of a fun toy, and I never got stressed if the battery was low.

[jefals]

I have the gut hook app. And it's really wonderful. And as wonderful as the technology is, it has an inherent flaw. The devices will always be vulnerable to damage or battery failure. I can never bring myself to leave the maps behind. The other issue is how much battery power is consumed using the app. And I am reluctant to start carrying around battery packs to keep my phone charged. So the app will remain a backup to the maps.

A nice feature of the maps is that you can enjoy studying them in your tent at night and see where you have been, where you are going, discover interesting features of the landscape, etc. without worrying about draining the battery. Better than a book to me.


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I'm the kind of guy that likes the technology. I'm a 70 year old grandpa, and I know my kids would worry about me out there, so I'm going to be using my phone to communicate with them, also take pictures. So I take along a bunch of spare batteries. Actually, on this last hike when I got to the top of the mountain, my plan was to hike to a tent site 1.7 miles away (guthook gives you this kind of info - the upcoming tent sites, towns, views, water sources, their altitudes and how far away from them you are). But, when the phone died there on the mountain top, I knew the kids would be worried if they didnt hear from me, so decided to hike all the way out and come home.

[jefals]

Reminder to those of you who automatically made this discussion about the AT:
99.999% of the earth is not on the AT.
The discussion of multiple navigation aids applies to the other 99.999% of the earth. More so in much of the earth.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

This was posted on the general forum under the APPALACHIAN TRAIL category. Yes, obviously you take different gear on different hikes.

To clarify, I was not on the AT when I had this mishap. I was on a water-scarce section of the TRT. Sorry for any confusion. This was meant to be my thoughts on a general hiking/backpacking topic.

[Deacon]

IMHO, maps really shine when you want to know your relative position to some feature or landmark that's off the trail, that perhaps you would like to visit, such as a town or a monument. Other than that, as said by others, I really don't care where exactly I am on the trail.

What I do care about is where the trail is if I should stray off it, which seems to happen to me frequently. This summer, I was coming down the AT off Mt. Minsi into Delaware Water Gap. The trail is about 30 feet wide at that point and well traveled by day hikers. That wide trail goes straight down the mountain but the AT cuts off to the side and I missed it. After 20 minutes I realized my error. Not wanting to backtrack, I checked my position with Guthook's app. I was able to follow along, cut across on a little side trail back to the AT.

Can electronics fail? Sure, but I don't use it 99.99% of the time, but when I need it it's there. It has saved me several times.


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I should clarify that I don't use gps (Guthook) so much for navigation, that is to find my way, but for an occasional quick check to make sure I'm still on the trail if I think I've strayed.

[Malto]

A map and compass and protactor are just as accurate as GPS in the right land navigators hands. Obviously this is a skill and must be learned to become poficent.

Unless you have zero or near zero visibility.

this issue has been beaten to death. When not on a super highway trail (like the AT) I will have maps but also I will have a way to pull in a GPS coordinate off the phone. If you rely on a phone only then you will likely find out that battery life is only an issue when you need it.

[jefals]

A map and compass and protactor are just as accurate as GPS in the right land navigators hands. Obviously this is a skill and must be learned to become poficent.

Unless you have zero or near zero visibility.

this issue has been beaten to death. When not on a super highway trail (like the AT) I will have maps but also I will have a way to pull in a GPS coordinate off the phone. If you rely on a phone only then you will likely find out that battery life is only an issue when you need it.

I agree - I have read this discussion many times. The reason I thought I would bring it up again is because, every time, up to now , when I've read "the phone could stop working", my attitude has always been that, yes, THEORETICALLY, this is a possibility, but in real life the phone's not going to break. So, I feel others may also have that attitude, and I now have the experience to tell you that, "Yes, Absolutely, THE PHONE CAN STOP WORKING!!"
And, again, I did post this to the wrong forum. I'm aware, now, that there is a general, NON-AT forum where it should have been posted: sorry for that. When my phone stopped working, I was on a trail much less traveled, and with much less water than the AT.

[DavidNH]

Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.

[Venchka]

Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.

With or without the phone, most of them will be the same. Helpless. Clueless. With an attitude.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

[jefals]

Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.

With or without the phone, most of them will be the same. Helpless. Clueless. With an attitude.
Wayne


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Come on! That's the FUTURE OF AMERICA you're talkin about! 😊

[Gambit McCrae]

Or....
Take map & compass.
Phone with app as backup.
Wayne
Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Wayne I don't mean to be rude, but Guthooks is for AT/ PCT hikes. I have not hiked any of the PCT and only half of the AT but I can not remember a time on the AT in the southern half where a compass would have been useful, or when I could have gotten lost for the need of a compass. Northern half of the AT/ the PCT more viable for a compass?

[Hikingjim]

Wayne I don't mean to be rude, but Guthooks is for AT/ PCT hikes. I have not hiked any of the PCT and only half of the AT but I can not remember a time on the AT in the southern half where a compass would have been useful, or when I could have gotten lost for the need of a compass. Northern half of the AT/ the PCT more viable for a compass?

Compass is basically an emergency item on the AT. I have never used it on the AT, but carry one
It is easier to get lost in certain areas on the north half of the AT. Still don't need your compass out!
I have seen multiple people get temporarily lost on the LT and the AT. Took a side trail by mistake, messed up on a rocky open area, etc.

[Puddlefish]

Kids today are growing up in an era where they don't learn to use maps because they have this gps on their smart phones. What's gonna happen when they get out on the AT and their smartphone dies, gets dropped or stolen? they'll be helpless and clueless.

Not much in practice. I've been an advocate of maps and compasses since my coastal sailing days, but there really isn't a lot of need for them on the AT, if you have even a generally good sense of direction.

You follow the white blazes, if you don't see a white blaze for a while you backtrack until you see one. You chat with the people around you. You notice when you wander down a side trail, and suddenly it narrows, or the leaves aren't pulped to a muddy mess, or there are numerous trees across the trail, it just looks different.

Let's not pretend kids today are any more clueless than we were as kids. A tiny percentage of us had boy scout/girl scout/wilderness training. The rest had to learn from miscellaneous sources that might or might not be particularly accurate. Most of my childhood reading was about heroes soundlessly moving through the woods without ever clumsily stepping on a twig, navigating by the moss on the north side of the trees, making beds out of convenient pine boughs and snaring a rabbit just in time for dinner every night.

Kids today have all the answers at their finger tips. They're vastly more prepared for new adventures than we ever were.

[rafe]

Both. Why not. But always a paper map. Electronics can fail for all kinds of reasons.

[tscoffey]

Real men use maps and compasses..... Those new fangled electronics are trouble...


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The deliciousness of these two statements being paired together cannot be appreciated enough.

[rocketsocks]

Both. Why not. But always a paper map. Electronics can fail for all kinds of reasons.

That's what I do as well.

[Venchka]

Come on! That's the FUTURE OF AMERICA you're talkin about!

Yes. And I'm old enough to hopefully check out before they wreck it completely.


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

[Odd Man Out]

I used the Guthook App on my last three day section. It was not necessary for navigation, but then I was in SNP where getting lost is pretty much impossible. It was nice as an e-version of the guide so I could figure out where the next water supply or shelter/tent site was. It was also useful for tracking my progress (miles per hour hiked), which is useful info to know. These features were nice, however none fit into the necessary category.

[jefals]

Come on! That's the FUTURE OF AMERICA you're talkin about!

Yes. And I'm old enough to hopefully check out before they wreck it completely.


Old. Slow. "Smarter than the average bear."

Hey, it wasn't the kids that nominated Don and Hil, ya know. I'm not sure where we're heading, but I don't think this is exactly the dawning of the age of aquarious ..😕