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  1. #1
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    Default Do I need to use Permethrin?

    Hi;
    I will be doing a section hike from Hanover NH to Pawling NY in October. I am considering treating my clothing with Permethrin. Should I worry about ticks in October? I understand that they are active at any time of the year, but when temps are lower (say below 40F), they move more slowly, and are less likely to jump onto you. Also, aren't there several phases the ticks go through, and are more likely to carry the Lyme disease during one phase (I think it's spring that is the worst).

    I will be carrying DEET anyway, but considering how long I will be on the trail, I might want some extra protection.

    Thanks for your advice

    Arden

  2. #2
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    I routinely get covered in ticks in November in the backwoods of Connecticut. It's up to you what you want to do, but my hiking clothes were treated by insectshield and I'm going to be sending my brush/hunting clothes to them shortly.
    Last edited by Sarcasm the elf; 09-03-2016 at 00:11.
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  3. #3
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    Yes. Highly recommend doing so.

  4. #4

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    When the temperatures go below freezing is when they get sluggish, at 40 degrees, ticks are still pretty nimble and get where they want to be. October through the late fall/early winter is when I have most often had encounters with them in the New England forests.

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    Thanks guys;
    I'll order the Permethrin. The Sawyer 24oz trigger spray gets very good reviews, so that is what I'm going to get.
    I once bought an aerosol can of Permethrin at my local outdoor store, but after reading all the warnings, I chose not to use it, and got rid of it at the local household toxic waste collection. What I think I failed to learn was that, while the stuff may be extremely toxic while it's wet, it isn't nearly so bad when it's dry. Probably better than DEET, which I will still carry (the lotion) with me for exposed skin.

    I am unsure as to whether or not it is safe to treat my expensive Merino wool shirts with Permethrin, but I suppose that it would work on natural fibers at least as well as synthetic ones. I will of course follow all instructions on the bottle, and what I can find on Sawyer's website.

    Arden

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arden View Post
    Thanks guys;
    I'll order the Permethrin. The Sawyer 24oz trigger spray gets very good reviews, so that is what I'm going to get.
    I once bought an aerosol can of Permethrin at my local outdoor store, but after reading all the warnings, I chose not to use it, and got rid of it at the local household toxic waste collection. What I think I failed to learn was that, while the stuff may be extremely toxic while it's wet, it isn't nearly so bad when it's dry. Probably better than DEET, which I will still carry (the lotion) with me for exposed skin.

    I am unsure as to whether or not it is safe to treat my expensive Merino wool shirts with Permethrin, but I suppose that it would work on natural fibers at least as well as synthetic ones. I will of course follow all instructions on the bottle, and what I can find on Sawyer's website.

    Arden
    Realistically, you're not going to have any problems unless you try to huff it, though I'm sure someone here would disagree. If you have cats or amphibians as pets, you want to be more careful.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWODaddy View Post
    Realistically, you're not going to have any problems unless you try to huff it, though I'm sure someone here would disagree. If you have cats or amphibians as pets, you want to be more careful.

    I have cats and live riverside which is part of why I chose to send my clothes to insectshield for professional permethrin treatment. They charged just under $10 per item and their treatment claims to last 70 washings which is the average life of a garment. I realized afterwards this may have actually been cheaper than it would have been to use sawyer spray to treat the clothes myself because of the need to reapply sawyer spray periodically.

    http://www.insectshield.com/mobile/C...?CategoryId=58
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  8. #8
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    I do have one cat, but he is an indoor animal, so if I apply the Permethrin outside, then hang the items on the wash line to dry, I shouldn't have any problems. Besides that, the cat lives pretty much in the basement - we have two dogs who live in the house proper. The cat gets the run of the downstairs after we put the dogs to bed in their kennels.

    I might have gone with an outfit like insectshield, but treating four items at $10 per would have cost me $40. I'm not really concerned about having to re-apply the permethrin, as I don't plan much warm weather hiking besides this trek. I prefer the colder months, but that is a problem when I have to carry my zero degree bag, which is a lot heavier than my lighter 30 degree bag, so I do mostly day trekking. If and when I ever do a thru-hike of the A.T., I may consider the insectshield option.

  9. #9

    Default Educate yourself and have strategies!

    If you spray on permethrin at home, make sure you allow time to do the treatment according to directions, have all the necessary equipment on hand, and allow time for the fabric to dry.

    My husband used to buy several bottles of permethrin a year as he spends many days outdoors year-round working and recreating in the woods on and near the A.T. around Harpers Ferry, WV. This summer, we both sent a batch of clothing to InsectShield--including Darn Tough wool socks, and synthetics. In the factory, InsectShield uses high heat to bond the chemical to the fabric, so it bonds more tightly and stays on the fabric longer than spraying on yourself at home. We wore some of the clothing on a 6-day backpack on the A.T. in Maine in July, and he has used it since then outdoors in the very hot and humid conditions we've had here in Harpers Ferry. We've been really happy with it, and have seen no ticks.

    A.T. tick researcher Karl Ford feels that wearing permethrin-treated clothing is the single most important prevention strategy for avoiding Lyme disease. You can read more about his research and advice on the WhiteBlaze thread he started Study Results: Tick-borne Disease Risk to Appalachian Trail Hikers, Karl Ford, Ph.D.

    Not everyone feels comfortable with chemicals; no one has to use permethrin. Ray Jardine, the famous pioneer of ultra-lightweight backpacking, believes in simply wearing light-colored clothing, with long pants tucked into socks and long-sleeved shirts tucked into pants, and doing frequent tick checks on clothing.

    Whatever you do, educate yourself about ticks, do frequent tick checks year-round (anytime temperatures are above freezing) and know the symptoms of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases. Many hikers never see the tick that infected them, and only 50-70% (some say less) get the tell-tale bulls-eye rash.

    On overgrown sections of trail you may not be able to avoid ticks, but you can be proactive about reducing your exposure to ticks by always putting a pad down when you sit on logs, leaf litter, or in grassy areas. Shelters are actually have very few ticks, since there is little vegetation for them.

    (I realize most posting on this thread know all this, but writing this for newbies who may be checking this out).

    Here are two videos InsectShield and ATC partnered on this spring, at Karl Ford's suggestion and under his guidance.

    Preventing Tick-Borne Diseases on the Appalachian Trail
    Expert Opinions on Tick Bite Prevention on the Appalachian Trail

    Lyme (and other tick-borne diseases) are serious business. Not all strategies are right for everyone. The important thing is to have them.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauriep View Post
    If you spray on permethrin at home, make sure you allow time to do the treatment according to directions, have all the necessary equipment on hand, and allow time for the fabric to dry.

    My husband used to buy several bottles of permethrin a year as he spends many days outdoors year-round working and recreating in the woods on and near the A.T. around Harpers Ferry, WV. This summer, we both sent a batch of clothing to InsectShield--including Darn Tough wool socks, and synthetics. In the factory, InsectShield uses high heat to bond the chemical to the fabric, so it bonds more tightly and stays on the fabric longer than spraying on yourself at home. We wore some of the clothing on a 6-day backpack on the A.T. in Maine in July, and he has used it since then outdoors in the very hot and humid conditions we've had here in Harpers Ferry. We've been really happy with it, and have seen no ticks.

    A.T. tick researcher Karl Ford feels that wearing permethrin-treated clothing is the single most important prevention strategy for avoiding Lyme disease. You can read more about his research and advice on the WhiteBlaze thread he started Study Results: Tick-borne Disease Risk to Appalachian Trail Hikers, Karl Ford, Ph.D.

    Not everyone feels comfortable with chemicals; no one has to use permethrin. Ray Jardine, the famous pioneer of ultra-lightweight backpacking, believes in simply wearing light-colored clothing, with long pants tucked into socks and long-sleeved shirts tucked into pants, and doing frequent tick checks on clothing.

    Whatever you do, educate yourself about ticks, do frequent tick checks year-round (anytime temperatures are above freezing) and know the symptoms of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases. Many hikers never see the tick that infected them, and only 50-70% (some say less) get the tell-tale bulls-eye rash.

    On overgrown sections of trail you may not be able to avoid ticks, but you can be proactive about reducing your exposure to ticks by always putting a pad down when you sit on logs, leaf litter, or in grassy areas. Shelters are actually have very few ticks, since there is little vegetation for them.

    (I realize most posting on this thread know all this, but writing this for newbies who may be checking this out).

    Here are two videos InsectShield and ATC partnered on this spring, at Karl Ford's suggestion and under his guidance.

    Preventing Tick-Borne Diseases on the Appalachian Trail
    Expert Opinions on Tick Bite Prevention on the Appalachian Trail

    Lyme (and other tick-borne diseases) are serious business. Not all strategies are right for everyone. The important thing is to have them.
    Read this several times; watch the videos; treat clothing with Permethrin; check daily for ticks.

    Pay attention to evidence!!!



    Bruce Traillium, brucetraillium.wordpress.com

  11. #11
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    I find permethrin significantly more effective than DEET for ticks. DEET is only about 50% effective against ticks when used correctly and continuously. Long pants tucked into socks/gators and nightly tick checks in combination with Permethrin on cloths and DEET or Picaridin on skin, is probably the best security against ticks (and other biting bugs for that matter). Living in Massachusettes, in the world lime disease epicenter, I have been very lucky being completely careless except for always using permethrin treated cloths in the backcountry. I have yet to find ticks during tick checks even when I have been in heavily tick infested areas while wearing permethrin treated cloths. . . knock on wood.
    I'm not lost. I'm exploring.

  12. #12
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    I used it on my clothes, boots,socks, bottom bathtub part of my tent, backpack. Never got a single tick on me my entire hike. I reapplied 3 times during my hike. I am past child bearing years, don't know if I would have used it when I was a younger woman...

  13. #13
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    I will continue to treat my clothes and dog monthly until we've had multiple hard frost, at 40 degree lows there will still be ticks.

    It sucks dosing your clothes in poison, but lyme disease sucks more, and it's got a pretty agreeably margin of safety in its mammilian toxicity as long as the mammal isn't a cat. Good low cost flea and tick treatment for dogs though, cents per month.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauriep View Post
    If you spray on permethrin at home, make sure you allow time to do the treatment according to directions, have all the necessary equipment on hand, and allow time for the fabric to dry.

    My husband used to buy several bottles of permethrin a year as he spends many days outdoors year-round working and recreating in the woods on and near the A.T. around Harpers Ferry, WV. This summer, we both sent a batch of clothing to InsectShield--including Darn Tough wool socks, and synthetics. In the factory, InsectShield uses high heat to bond the chemical to the fabric, so it bonds more tightly and stays on the fabric longer than spraying on yourself at home. We wore some of the clothing on a 6-day backpack on the A.T. in Maine in July, and he has used it since then outdoors in the very hot and humid conditions we've had here in Harpers Ferry. We've been really happy with it, and have seen no ticks.

    A.T. tick researcher Karl Ford feels that wearing permethrin-treated clothing is the single most important prevention strategy for avoiding Lyme disease. You can read more about his research and advice on the WhiteBlaze thread he started Study Results: Tick-borne Disease Risk to Appalachian Trail Hikers, Karl Ford, Ph.D.

    Not everyone feels comfortable with chemicals; no one has to use permethrin. Ray Jardine, the famous pioneer of ultra-lightweight backpacking, believes in simply wearing light-colored clothing, with long pants tucked into socks and long-sleeved shirts tucked into pants, and doing frequent tick checks on clothing.

    Whatever you do, educate yourself about ticks, do frequent tick checks year-round (anytime temperatures are above freezing) and know the symptoms of Lyme and other tick-borne diseases. Many hikers never see the tick that infected them, and only 50-70% (some say less) get the tell-tale bulls-eye rash.

    On overgrown sections of trail you may not be able to avoid ticks, but you can be proactive about reducing your exposure to ticks by always putting a pad down when you sit on logs, leaf litter, or in grassy areas. Shelters are actually have very few ticks, since there is little vegetation for them.

    (I realize most posting on this thread know all this, but writing this for newbies who may be checking this out).

    Here are two videos InsectShield and ATC partnered on this spring, at Karl Ford's suggestion and under his guidance.

    Preventing Tick-Borne Diseases on the Appalachian Trail
    Expert Opinions on Tick Bite Prevention on the Appalachian Trail

    Lyme (and other tick-borne diseases) are serious business. Not all strategies are right for everyone. The important thing is to have them.

    I could not write this better Laurie, well thought out- then realized my dad would do the same thing over the years. Just a few years back after leaving the AT on the same hike both of us came down with flu like symptoms. Read up on the issues and visited a doctor... asked for both Lyme and Rocky Mountain.... Three days later we got the results and we both had Rocky Mountain... never found the tick or the bite. Never say never. Deep Woods Off or Sawyer could have prevented a month of fever.
    Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    Woo

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    I find permethrin significantly more effective than DEET for ticks. DEET is only about 50% effective against ticks when used correctly and continuously. Long pants tucked into socks/gators and nightly tick checks in combination with Permethrin on cloths and DEET or Picaridin on skin, is probably the best security against ticks (and other biting bugs for that matter). Living in Massachusettes, in the world lime disease epicenter, I have been very lucky being completely careless except for always using permethrin treated cloths in the backcountry. I have yet to find ticks during tick checks even when I have been in heavily tick infested areas while wearing permethrin treated cloths. . . knock on wood.
    Well OK both do different things. Deet doesn't kill anything... just confuses the senses. Make's it harder to find you - its a true repellent. You can spray House fly's and they love it like it was supper. My understanding of Permethrin is a repellent that gets the job done... drops insects fast, by neurotoxin. As mammals we don't have the same sodium channels or nervous system, so we are not as prone as insects. If we did not have this wonderful chemical we would all be scratching our heads... due to this is best stuff on Earth for Head lice, Scabies, etc.
    Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

    Woo

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by nsherry61 View Post
    I find permethrin significantly more effective than DEET for ticks. DEET is only about 50% effective against ticks when used correctly and continuously. Long pants tucked into socks/gators and nightly tick checks in combination with Permethrin on cloths and DEET or Picaridin on skin, is probably the best security against ticks (and other biting bugs for that matter). Living in Massachusettes, in the world lime disease epicenter, I have been very lucky being completely careless except for always using permethrin treated cloths in the backcountry. I have yet to find ticks during tick checks even when I have been in heavily tick infested areas while wearing permethrin treated cloths. . . knock on wood.
    Anecdotally, my experience matches yours. In fact, I haven't pulled a single tick off myself since I started using permitherin 2 years ago.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SWODaddy View Post
    Anecdotally, my experience matches yours. In fact, I haven't pulled a single tick off myself since I started using permitherin 2 years ago.
    Ditto. I've seen ticks on dogs and on the ground. None on me.

  18. #18

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    http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/de...tick-repellent

    The insecticide permethrin is far better at keeping ticks off compared to DEET. Permethrin is an insecticide though. Each is used differently. Permethrin is applied to the OUTSIDE of clothing ONLY worn ONLY after dry. RAID is also an insecticide. Wouldn't want to spray that on skin now would you? DEET can be applied directly to the skin BUT has been scientifically demonstrated in various tests to be absorbed through the skin which the scientists then basically say, "so what, it breaks down in the body." To which I say, "what, so that's it, the science stops there?"

    Either way tick bite prevention goes beyond approaching it solely from a insect repellent or insecticide perspective.

    I've sprayed Permethrin on the OUTSIDE of merino wool Smartwool socks, on the cuffs of non wool hiking pants, and on trail runners as a tick repellant. I've recently sprayed Sawyers permethrin on the outside of one dark charcoal 100% merino wool Icebreaker tee and on a 100% Smartwool cranberry colored tee. It slightly changed the color of both.

  19. #19
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    I have just treated my clothing with permethrin in preparation for a week on the AT. My permethrin source is Martin's 10% solution diluted to .5%. I elected to do my clothing in one batch in a bucket. I did a 2-hour soak. One hitch: 1 or 2 of my dark garments bled some coloring which transferred to the light garments. I saw this when I took everything out of the bucket (still soaking wet). I was able to rinse the dye out of the light garments. I figured the permethrin was also rinsed out. I dried those garments and retreated them by spraying on the permethrin solution.

    Beacon

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogwood View Post
    http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/de...tick-repellent

    The insecticide permethrin is far better at keeping ticks off compared to DEET. Permethrin is an insecticide though. Each is used differently. Permethrin is applied to the OUTSIDE of clothing ONLY worn ONLY after dry. RAID is also an insecticide. Wouldn't want to spray that on skin now would you? DEET can be applied directly to the skin BUT has been scientifically demonstrated in various tests to be absorbed through the skin which the scientists then basically say, "so what, it breaks down in the body." To which I say, "what, so that's it, the science stops there?"

    Either way tick bite prevention goes beyond approaching it solely from a insect repellent or insecticide perspective.

    I've sprayed Permethrin on the OUTSIDE of merino wool Smartwool socks, on the cuffs of non wool hiking pants, and on trail runners as a tick repellant. I've recently sprayed Sawyers permethrin on the outside of one dark charcoal 100% merino wool Icebreaker tee and on a 100% Smartwool cranberry colored tee. It slightly changed the color of both.
    You can dunk your entire wardrobe in permitherin...hell, people take baths in it to treat lice/scabies.

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