Tarps, Storms, Bliss, Dirt-bagging

[Tipi Walter]

I think it's fun to figure out how effective one can make the simplest and/or least expensive gear. I find it eye opening.

I think the conversation is not so much about tarps as about dirtbagging it to achieve our bag nights. I was a dirtbagger par excellence in the old days when my backpack was my old USAF duffel bag loaded with all my stuff and thrown over a shoulder---and using a combination of very cheap sleeping bags in tandem for 0F temps instead of paying $400 for a quality down bag.

Going cheap works for those in poverty who want to live outdoors---and blue poly tarps aka walmart tarps work great in many applications. My first several tipis were made from these kind of tarps.

Ultimately though I have found high quality gear (and very expensive gear) to be cheaper than repeat buying of inferior ineffectual products. I think Skurka calls it "stupid cheap" or something. Give me a high quality $700 WM sleeping bag and it will outlast a half dozen lower rated bags and still be going strong after 20 years and will take me from 50F down to -20F with no problem. I like having one piece of gear that does it all, and find it comical when guys have 4 different sleeping bags for the 4 seasons.

The Arcteryx rain jacket is a perfect example. 10 years ago I wasted $200 on a Marmot Minima gtx rain jacket with paclite gtx which developed pinholes in the first 2 years. I just wasted $200. Had I purchased the Arcteryx Alpha SV right off I wouldn't have had to resort to substandard rain shells like the Marmot or ponchos or anoraks or all the rest. So really dirtbagging is the art of wasting small amounts of money for substandard gear when tested over the long haul and when tested in real world hellish conditions, like 80 hour horizontal 60mph rainstorms or a series of blizzards at -10F. High quality always wins out in the end.

[MuddyWaters]

How many shower curtains did Granny Gatewood go through on her hike?

Which hike?

[plexusbritt]

I So really dirtbagging is the art of wasting small amounts of money for substandard gear when tested over the long haul and when tested in real world hellish conditions, like 80 horizontal 60mph rainstorms or a series of blizzards at -10F. High quality always wins out in the end.

I realize I am more of one to read everyone else's conversations rather than join in but, I feel the need to respectfully disagree to a point. I have "dirtbagged" since I began backpacking out of necessity. I love the experiences but, seeing as how I started as a 16 year old making minimum wage... Lol while ten years has changed a lot of things, there are some pieces of DIY gear that manages to make frequent appearance. My gear has matured in some ways, or perhaps just become more fine tuned but, I'll still rescue bunson burners from a trash can and use it as a stove in a heart beat. For me, the cost cutting and DIY/trash to treasure mentally, is half the fun and looking in my gear boxes, I don't see any wasted money.



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[Tipi Walter]

A perfect example of Dirtbagging Vs Quality is with sleeping bags. I've been all over the map on this subject. In the old days I lived outside all year round in the NC mountains and learned quickly the price of staying warm, alive, and comfortable on long winter nights at -10F or worse. You basically have two choices---Expensive and light or cheap and heavy.

Do this test: Get a $30 feather Army sleeping bag (about 4-5 lbs) and slap it on frozen ground at -10F. See you in the morning. You'll need another layer so you buy an old boy scout rectangular bag (about 6 lbs) and use it on top of the Army bag. Hey, I'm starting to sleep warm!!! Now pack up all this crap and start hiking. Your bag is around 10+ lbs. Weight and Bulk will keep you alive for minimal money, but you have to carry it.

Now do this test: Buy a $700 Western Mountaineering bag at 3.5 lbs and sleep zipped up on a pad at -10F. You'll probably be hot. Pack up and move. You stayed warmer and just lost 7 lbs of ugly weight.

Homeless people know how to stay warm sleeping outside in the winter and they are true dirtbaggers. But they have to carry all their crap in shopping carts because they have 6 blankets and a fiberfill bag and several large pieces of cardboard for a pad. Now try rolling all this gear on a variety of trails in a wilderness area for 3 weeks.

[saltysack]

A perfect example of Dirtbagging Vs Quality is with sleeping bags. I've been all over the map on this subject. In the old days I lived outside all year round in the NC mountains and learned quickly the price of staying warm, alive, and comfortable on long winter nights at -10F or worse. You basically have two choices---Expensive and light or cheap and heavy.

Do this test: Get a $30 feather Army sleeping bag (about 4-5 lbs) and slap it on frozen ground at -10F. See you in the morning. You'll need another layer so you buy an old boy scout rectangular bag (about 6 lbs) and use it on top of the Army bag. Hey, I'm starting to sleep warm!!! Now pack up all this crap and start hiking. Your bag is around 10+ lbs. Weight and Bulk will keep you alive for minimal money, but you have to carry it.

Now do this test: Buy a $700 Western Mountaineering bag at 3.5 lbs and sleep zipped up on a pad at -10F. You'll probably be hot. Pack up and move. You stayed warmer and just lost 7 lbs of ugly weight.

Homeless people know how to stay warm sleeping outside in the winter and they are true dirtbaggers. But they have to carry all their crap in shopping carts because they have 6 blankets and a fiberfill bag and several large pieces of cardboard for a pad. Now try rolling all this gear on a variety of trails in a wilderness area for 3 weeks.

thank god shopping cars don't roll well on the trail!


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[nsherry61]

Wow. This is fun. We seem to have a wonderfully complex discussion going here.
Tarps vs. dirtbagging
Top of the line vs. bottom of the line.
Living outside 365 days a year vs. some variable length backpack trip(s)

Titi, I love tarps. As expressed elsewhere, I love seeing and feeling and smelling and hearing the world around me at night by limiting my exposure to the elements just enough to be comfortable. I can adjust a tarp pitch to give me what I want each night depending on the weather and location. To me, a tent is an isolation chamber that I might need in the worst conditions, but only in the very worst conditions which I don't need to prepare for unless I choose to go to those places during those times of year. AND, I don't think that choosing more exposure deserves to be ridiculed or looked down on, after all, we are going outside by choice to experience it, otherwise we could all stay in our warm houses.

Because tarps can be both cheap and light, and because many people want to get into backpacking without breaking a budget, and because I see so many people thinking they need a tent to be able to go backpacking (or at least try it out), and because a tent worth taking backpacking is generally well over $200, I think that exploring and sharing cheap tarping (and quilting?) is a wonderful and feel-good thing.

There is no doubt that heavier, more durable, and more expensive gear make sense for people that are spending more time in the outdoors and traveling fewer miles per day. Most construction workers don't wear running shoes and few runners wear construction boots. . . and those of us that do some construction around our house on the weekends, don't need the most comfortable, durable and expensive boots to get the job done.

I totally support buying the best when you can afford it, and it is what you want or what you need for extreme or frequent use. I also think there are often very effective, inexpensive and often fun alternatives that work as well as the best in less extreme conditions and/or less frequent use. Sadly, many of us only get a few weeks of playtime outside each year instead of a few months, and some of us like carrying really super light backpacks for the joy of it and are willing to replace lighter weight and/or cheaper gear occasionally as the price we pay for the joy of being outdoors without breaking either ourselves or our bank accounts.

[Bronk]

A $10 walmart tarp may not last you for 2200 miles, but you'll get your $10 worth out of it. Carry some duct tape with you so you can make repairs until you get to town to buy a replacement. I've found that no matter what application you use these for they are only good for one season before they start to leak.

[Moosling]

A $10 walmart tarp may not last you for 2200 miles, but you'll get your $10 worth out of it.

Bingo.



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[Wise Old Owl]

People who are interested in using a tarp in "extreme" conditions should study Dzjow's Adventure Log---

https://dzjow.com/2011/06/08/tarping...o-spinntex-97/

I wrote a short review of his experience on one of my trips in my trip report---

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=478248

If he was going that UL would it not benifit to have a slightly larger tarp?

[Hikingjim]

cheap stuff will get you going in backpacking. you don't need much to get out there, especially if you're young and can carry a bit more weight
But yes, cheap tarps/synthetics, etc, will not be cost effective in the long run. But a lot of hikers who want to get out there aren't going to use or care about their gear for 50 years.

Tipi - someone carrying a -10f sleeping bag in July seems a bit more comical than people with multiple sleeping bags.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi - someone carrying a -10f sleeping bag in July seems a bit more comical than people with multiple sleeping bags.

I own two sleeping bags, a winter WM bag rated to -15F and a summer Marmot down bag rated to 0F but it's so old as to be more a flat quilt than a lofted mummy bag. It works well for 3 season use.

[10-K]

I have several shelters and like the rest of my gear I pair my shelter with my hike. Not 1 shelter serves every hike best.

My default shelter is a Hyperlite Mountain Gear Echo 2 cuben tarp. It's light and is a palace for 1 person It's large enough that (so far) I've been able to survive some deluges and stay dry. As noted, site selection is paramount when using a tarp.

I have the beak for the tarp too - I take it on long hikes as additional protection from wind driven rain. https://www.hyperlitemountaingear.co...ht-system.html

Other shelters I use are MLD Duomid, Tarptent Rainbow, and LH Gear Cuben Solo.

[Maydog]

I've always slept in a tent, but I like the idea of just sleeping under a tarp. What do you do about bugs though? Aren't mosquitoes and other bugs bothering you at night?

As expressed elsewhere, I love seeing and feeling and smelling and hearing the world around me at night by limiting my exposure to the elements just enough to be comfortable. I can adjust a tarp pitch to give me what I want each night depending on the weather and location.

[nsherry61]

I've always slept in a tent, but I like the idea of just sleeping under a tarp. What do you do about bugs though? Aren't mosquitoes and other bugs bothering you at night?

Following a big biting bug hatching is one time that I do actually like having a tent.

Even when bugs are a problem during the day, especially early evening, they are often not a problem after dark.

In most places I've been over the years, bugs are pretty much a non-issue after the end of July and in most places, most times of year, bugs can be managed pretty well with a little bug repellent and/or either a head net or a flat piece of net thrown over the top of you at night. I have a bug tent that I have found I rarely use (I also rarely use a head net or bug net of any kind). But initially having the bug tent allowed me to go tarping at times I was concerned about bugs and then realize it was rarely needed or even useful because alternative techniques were effective enough, easier, and lighter.

Now is the perfect time of year to experiment with tarping.

Go for it and have fun!

[Dogwood]

What's being demonstrated by NSherry is AFTER conditions have been considered and with DIY and dirt bagging skills one can absolutely combine all these elements in a adequate shelter.

Maybe my definition of dirt bagging is different but I consider dirt bagging also to include getting high quality gear at highly discounted prices. IMO, dirt bagging isn't defined as being free or of ramshackle quality gear.

[Dogwood]

Ever see the polycro tarps and tents made by GOLD Gear, tarp,/tent poles? Ever see the Tyvek shelters people make? Ever see someone using a shower curtain for ground cloth or tarp?

Perhaps, longevity of these pieces or significant storm worthiness is not the designer's goal?

Go the other direction in price.

Do you really suppose some(much?) of the UL/SUL stratospherically priced gear offered by UL/SUL cottage gear companies is always designed to be used in the toughest situations or for many yrs/trail miles of use?

[Maydog]

Hmmm, maybe I'll try just a tarp sometime...probably on a car camping trip with a tent in the trunk just in case. Just need to get past the mental barrier. I have this mental image of trying to swat away bugs while I'm trying to sleep.

[nsherry61]

Hmmm, maybe I'll try just a tarp sometime...probably on a car camping trip . . .

Heck, try it out in your back yard if you have one. Try it out on a night with some storm expectations and when you don't need to get up early the next morning. Then, if it goes wrong, you have a warm bed to climb right into instead of a tent that needs to be pitched.

Do it tonight!

[DeerPath]

I like this setup. Fast and simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBeZqXU4zk

[nsherry61]

I like this setup. Fast and simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBeZqXU4zk

The fastest and simplest is what Sgt. Rock calls a flying diamond. It takes about 30 seconds, really, to attach one corner to a tree, the opposite corner pulled tight to the ground, and then the remaining corners to the ground from there. About 30 seconds, three stakes and one six foot (or so) guy line.

I also appreciate the apparent simplicity of the Etowah setup, but I end up never using it because it is not particularly stable in the wind without additional guy lines and it's overly enclosed for most nights. I want a more stable setup in heavy weather and I want a more open setup whenever I can get away with it.