Down jacket - why?

[Slo-go'en]

The down "Puffy" has pretty much become ubiquitous hiker attire over the last few years. There are plenty of synthetic options available at much less cost then down, but there is a weight and bulk penalty for using synthetic. But you gain somewhat better damp weather resistance using synthetic.

Except for my sleeping bag, I have always gone synthetic for the warm layer. But man, I'm getting more and more jealous of those hikers wearing a nice puffy down jacket on a crisp morning or evening.

[jj dont play]

I used a Northface Quarter zip thermoball. Started mid April and barely had need for it, actually would have been fine without it. Sent it home at Harper's Ferry due to not using it in a long time. Got it back for the whites to play it safe but didn't need it so sent it back home again after the whites.


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[Dogwood]

Hi guys!

I am absolutely new here, planning a thru-hike starting aroung March 8th and am currently in the phase of putting my gear together.
It seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket. From what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp. But I am now a big fan of down, so I was wondering if some of you have an alternative for me (I don't count going in the sleeping bag early as an alternative ). I do understand that the evenings in march are gonna be cold, but is there any way around buying a down jacket? If not, I am not totally reluctant to take a down jacket... better than to be cold every night.
Besides that, I am planning on bringing long underwear, a shirt, a fleece sweater and obviously a wind/rain jacket.

Would be happy for your suggestions! Thanks in advance!

Sorry - should have been clearer. I'd say it's a little bit of both
If possible I would like to avoid an extra piece "just" for camp - on the other hand I do know how cold spring evenings and mornings can be, so I guess I have to bring something. And if I have to bring something, I would prefer synthetic over down, but this is not set in stone, if down has some huge advantages. So your answer works for both my questions/issues. Thanks

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Before you approach the subject of down verse synthetic or jacket or vest, blah blah blah...

1) What range of temps and weather do you expect to experience with a March 8 start date ongoing into possibly late April/early May? I think you might be underestimating how cold, wet, and snowy it can be and how wide the weather can fluctuate through April in the Appalachian Mountains. Factor in wind chill factors in March and you're could easily be looking at the teens in fahrenheit possibly even single digits. Add in icy rain and/or snow and you have hypothermic conditions. By saying this, "it seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket; from what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp", and, again, "I do know how cold spring evenings and mornings can be, so I guess I have to bring something", it seems you expect to only need warm clothes/jacket/vest whatever in camp and in the evenings and morning. Not so my friend! You WILL need warm clothes to hike in too with your start date!

2) I certainly understand a desire to reduce redundancy in your apparel layering for in camp but until I know we're both on the same realistic conditions page you will face AND I know what you plan on hiking in for insulation/warmth with upside versatility on warmer fairer sunnier days I can't, and for the life of me I don't understand how anyone else can either, suggest what you should be bringing to wear in camp knowing this is your goal, "if possible I would like to avoid an extra piece "just" for camp."

PLEASE, consider that with your March 8 start date you will be in Great Smoky Mountains National Park(GSMNP) going over high elevations, actually crossing the highest pt of the entire AT, during about the third week of March.

From the GSMNP site:

Spring
March through May: Spring brings with it unpredictable weather. Changes occur rapidly - sunny skies can yield to snow flurries in a few hours. March is the month with the most radical changes; snow can fall at any time during the month, particularly in the higher elevations.

You would be wise to heed historical avg temps and weather for Clingmans Dome(higher elevations).

https://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/weather.htm

[egilbe]

The big advantage down has over synthetics is warmth to weight ratio and down compresses better and lasts longer. Only you can answer if a warmer, lighter-weight, smaller packing jacket that could save your life is a better choice over a bulkier, heavier, almost as warm jacket, that could save your life.


For the record, I hike in synthetics and wool and wear down "just in camp".

[Leo L.]

I carry a down jacket on all trips where the weather is uncertain and temperature might drop to freezing or below.
Nothing better than the extra warmth of the jacket when idling in camp after a strenous day.
If the weather is cold, I keep on the down jacket until I'm in the bag, then take off the jacket and stuff it into the empty Thermarest stuff sack, thus providing a perfect pillow.
In the morning the first thing I do is putting on the down jacket, which is still warm from the body heat.
No actual hiking in the down stuff if possible.

[Bronk]

I don't like the idea of down on the AT simply because in the spring it is usually so wet. Pretty much everything you own is going to be damp and mildew smelling after a couple of weeks. Down doesn't work so well when its wet. So I wouldn't get hung up on the idea that most people carry down, I don't remember seeing a lot of people with down.

[KDogg]

You don't hike in down. You'll be moving and generating heat. If it was a cold rain then we wore a mid layer with our rain gear over it. in a warm rain we didn't put any other layers on. When it is raining at camp then you get your water, put up your tent or get in the shelter and then put on your down. We never had a problem with our down getting wet. Always have a set of clothing for hiking and a set for camp. The set for camp should always be dry and never be worn for hiking. When you get up in the morning, put your wet clothes back on and get moving. Don't make the mistake of hiking in your dry camp clothes or you will end up with two sets of wet clothes.

[garlic08]

... So I wouldn't get hung up on the idea that most people carry down, I don't remember seeing a lot of people with down.

You never would have seen my down, since it was literally never outside my pack or tent in harsh weather. It was for sleeping only. I found it extremely effective on the AT, with some care ventilating the tent. Lay it out in the sun while eating lunch on a nice day and it'll stay more fresh (relatively speaking for a thru hiker, of course). Launder it at the end of the season, if needed.

In my experience, mildew needs days of moisture and darkness. With some care and experience, that can nearly always be avoided.

(Speaking of cleanliness, that's a great argument for a quilt. Since you never lay on it, it stays cleaner, and it's simple to expose the whole thing to UV on a sunny day.)

[Tipi Walter]

High quality goose down is where it's at. Ask anyone with a Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering bag or jacket or vest. It's remarkably, magically, warm. It becomes "a sleeping bag with arms" which will make the lowest temps enjoyable. In camp of course. No one hikes in this stuff unless they're pulling a winter ascent of Denali.

Like Kdogg and Garlics says, you'll never see us in this stuff while we're hiking because it's all inside our packs and dry. I have a couple rules while backpacking: Keep moving, Stay alive, Keep my down dry.

My definition of backpacking is this: Managing Discomfort. And goose down goes a long way in achieving this.

[Hikingjim]

down jacket allows you to go lighter on your sleeping bag/quilt. Why not have a bit of portable feather for those cold nights.

As another option, something like north face thermoball (synthetic) can work because it's a bit more error proof. Some hikers find out the hard way that you can end up with ridiculous amounts of condensation if you're not setup right, and that will send you straight to town if you soak your sleeping gear.

[Starchild]

I consider it primarily part of my emergency kit for warmth - as in set up the tent, take off wet clothes, put on the warm dry stuff like the puffy and get into the bag. For this use using it as an extra layer of warmth while sleeping and in a dry camp is a great 2nd purpose that does not interfere with the primary. As for the restrictive feeling when sleeping, yes it does, but so does the mummy bag zipped up under the same conditions.

As for hiking in them. I would say it's not that one does not hike with them, it's one is very careful and selective if that happens - as it is sleepware and emergency clothes. But early morning cold is it not uncommon for hikers to start off wearing the down till they get warmed up by hiking, but only if it's dry out and before any sweating.

In another hiking forum the subject of fleece for hiking, down for camp/sleeping came up. One dude said that he did the opposite, down while hiking fleece in camp. Poor dude just didn't get it, hopefully he is OK.

[Secondmouse]

down is lighter, packs tighter, and retains its loft for many more years than any current synthetic.

20 years or more of life is not unusual for a good down garment. synthetic normally starts going off after a few years of normal use, particularly if it's been carried compressed for any length of time. down is only more expensive if you neglect to amortize the cost over several years.

for people who really use their gear, down doesn't cost, it pays...

[Dogwood]

Hi guys!

I am absolutely new here, planning a thru-hike starting aroung March 8th and am currently in the phase of putting my gear together.
It seems that there is general consensus to bring a down jacket. From what I understand this is used for evenings/mornings in camp. But I am now a big fan of down, so I was wondering if some of you have an alternative for me (I don't count going in the sleeping bag early as an alternative ). I do understand that the evenings in march are gonna be cold, but is there any way around buying a down jacket? If not, I am not totally reluctant to take a down jacket... better than to be cold every night.
Besides that, I am planning on bringing long underwear, a shirt, a fleece sweater and obviously a wind/rain jacket.

Would be happy for your suggestions! Thanks in advance!

What is your shirt construction? LS, I guess? Materials? Wt, in regards to warmth and then wt in regards to ounces? Button down? Full zip?

What wt is your fleece i.e.; 100, 200 or 300? Does it have a full zip or is it a pull over with a part zip?

The synthetic verse down debate isn't as clear cut as it may have been. There are a wider range of options to possibly consider with compositions of down/synthetic, combinations of hydrophobic down and quality shell fabrics offering greater water resistance. https://www.rei.com/product/898993/r...loud-vest-mens

What you may also consider factoring in for your insulation options is this is within context of the AT and your anticipated town stops with it's abundant possibilities of well analyzed town stops with routine opportunities to dry stuff out. With Feb and early March NOBO start dates you may find yourself desiring/needing to go into town more often than assumed. LOL. I'd even bet on that happening.

FWIW, and although I own several down and synthetic vests and jackets, synthetic insulation is NOT as warm when wet as often marketing claims! So whether you choose down, hydrophobic down, synthetic, consider shell fabrics that offer more protection to your down or some combination either way you have to protect the insulation's thermal efficiency. You're not expecting to fall into a river on a remote long distance backcountry Alaska expedition. You have to protect your insulation in some way. Best to understand how to do that first. Then, go from there accessing what will serve you and your hike's conditions. I think it's similar to sleeping bag insulation choices and sleep systems.

I surely hope you review the avg high and low temps for high elevation at Clingman's Dome in the link previously provided. You should note the avg highs and lows for March are 10* F COLDER than for April so YOU YOU SHOULD take that into account when others are offering weather and layering opinions for their NOBO AT thru-hikes which started in April! It seems they aren't doing that. YOU SHOULD also NOTE the historical monthly avg snowfall is 5" for April and MORE THAN 5X that for March at 26 inches. Some big swings to take note of. You should also NOTE these are only avgs meaning there are going to be days warmer and colder than the average.

It may be wet from rain and/or sleet or wet east coast snow and/or slushy on the ground and in the trees where it's in the low twenties maybe/very likely a few times near single digits possibly even during the day! You may have clear crisp sunny windy days in March in hiking temps of 50-near 70* F. Depending on your fleece that may not be enough warmth on the move with even a LS shirt as your base/midlayer. Under your system you're forcing yourself to go to a rain jacket over the top which may not be necessary in cold crisp non wet non windy sub 40* F conditions for warmth. Yes, this can be done in those cold conditions but there might be other layering approaches for your March 8 start date and what you said your goals are.

Here's where a med wt insulation vest can work. On the coldest days you have a vest, fleece, and LS shirt that can be worn as a system possibly on the move at a moderate less strenuous less gung pace or mixed and matched for in camp so it makes it not as necessary to have separate torso camp clothing.....which is your goal. You have the rain wind/rain jacket, you need a real rain jacket, at least for in the beginning of your NOBO, to add to that 4 part layering system if need be. Here again you should consider what others have said. If you like sitting around for long periods at stops and in camps, walking around town in cold conditions, etc perhaps a dedicated jacket suits you better. And, a vest as not vest and a jacket is not a jacket. There are all sorts of features, weights, insulation/warmth capacities, etc. With a vest it's wise to consider warmth for the extremities, which you should be doing with a March 8 start date anyhow. i.e.; beanie, gloves, warm socks(TWO PR! for your start date), hoods and pockets on jackets, vests, etc.

FWIW, as one who is much more of a hiker than a camper when I stop moving for the day I'm in my sleeping bag and shelter within 15-20 mins so I have less need for a dedicated heavy jacket for in camp as a quilt/sleeping bag and shelter and ground pad serve as warming insulation.

FWIW, and although the assumption is no one hikes in down unless "they are hiking Denali", I hike in a med wt down or synthetic vest in cold conditions down to teens *F and up to 55*F with regularity on clear crisp days. The trick is in how it's layered and with what accessories and what I'm wearing on my bottom half. And those pieces in my kit have only been chosen because beforehand I've rightly, hopefully rightly, know myself, know what kind of backpacking approaches I will mostly assume for the current hike, my skills, and the range of weather conditions.

[MtDoraDave]

This has been an educational thread. Now I get it.

I bought two sets of micro fleece thermals; one medium and one large. As well as a tight fitting base layer (tights).
Last March (20th or so) I was in the Smokies when a nor'easter came through and dropped 6 inches of snow and the temps were approximately 15 degrees... and there's always wind.
I was wearing my base layer, both layers of micro fleece, my hiking pants, AND my rain pants and jacket - as well as beanie hat and gloves ... and was still shaking from being cold trying to cook dinner.

It looks like a down jacket and pants are in my future, as they are warmer, lighter, and pack smaller than the fleece.

It's only more expensive if you don't buy it first. Try to save money, and end up buying it later - that's what's expensive.

[Tipi Walter]

Last March (20th or so) I was in the Smokies when a nor'easter came through and dropped 6 inches of snow and the temps were approximately 15 degrees... and there's always wind.
I was wearing my base layer, both layers of micro fleece, my hiking pants, AND my rain pants and jacket - as well as beanie hat and gloves ... and was still shaking from being cold trying to cook dinner.

I can always tell under-equipped winter backpackers when they stand around camp in their rain gear---jackets and pants---when it isn't raining or snowing. Such shells are their last line of defense against the cold---when in fact they should of brought more layers and preferably down jackets and pants. Depending on a rain shell for warmth when in camp is a poor substitute for geese.

Over the years I have formulated my clothing defcon levels---is it so cold you're wearing everything you brought???

THE DEFCON LEVELS

Defcon Level One: T-shirt and shorts
Two: Shorts, silk turtleneck (or baselayer) and t-shirt over the turtleneck

Three: Shorts and thermal tops or t-shirt with rain jacket
Four: Thermal tops with hat and gloves and rain pants (or shorts over merino/capilene leggings)

Five: Thermal bottoms, pants, thermal tops/wool shirt and down jacket
Six: Everything and the rain jacket possibly or with the down parka(level 5 includes the hats/gloves)

Seven: In the sleeping bag with balaclava, watch hat and double socks
Eight: In the sleeping bag with hot water bottles

Nine: Rescue by helicopter or fleeing on foot
Defcon Level Ten: Death by frostbite or hypothermia

The first 4 levels are hiking only, the last 6 are basecamp levels as it would be almost impossible to backpack in the down jacket no matter how cold it got. The wool shirt is a transition layer, it's the demarcation between cold and cool and is rarely worn while backpacking but is always worn in camp either alone over the thermal tops or underneath the down jacket.

Defcon Levels are the stages of warm layers every backpacker thinks about, they exist in the back of the mind as a security zone giving the backpacker leeway up or down in all conditions.

Summer usually does not concern itself with Defcon Levels, in fact when it is hot many items are not even taken out such as the rain pants, the down jacket, the second hat and the gloves. Hiking in the rain is allowed and though one can still get chilled and soaked the thermal top and the rain jacket usually is all that is needed to solve the problem.

[Dogwood]

Nine: Rescue by helicopter or fleeing on foot
Defcon Level Ten: Death by frostbite or hypothermia

[Dogwood]

Deacon Level 11: burning your insulating clothing to stay warm and for signaling the helicopter

[Tipi Walter]

Deacon Level 11: burning your insulating clothing to stay warm and for signaling the helicopter

True. Or bringing a propane torch while wearing blue jeans and waiting for rescue while smoking packs of cigarettes. (This actually happened to three backpackers from South Carolina on a trip into the Smokies during a snowstorm).

[gbolt]

Tipi - That is an awesome post. Belongs in a magazine article. I plan on creating my own Defcon Level List with the personal clothing gear that I own - in order to insure what I am packing,depending on the expected temperature and conditions, is appropriate. Therefore, the propane torch can be replaced by a lighter for the cigarettes!

[rocketsocks]

Are goose feathers edible?