Scout Trip to VA

[-chuck-]

Just looking for a little input on a trip to Virginia I'm planning for next summer with a scout group. Boys will be 13-17, most of them having done the Pemi Loop in NH this past July. Goal is to do ~50 miles over 5 days and kinda want to finish at or at least incorporate McAffee Knob.

I was thinking along these lines:

• Saturday - VA 601 to Sarver Hollow Shelter (9.4 miles)
• Sunday - Sarver Hollow Shelter to Niday Shelter (6 miles)
• Monday - Niday Shelter to Pickle Branch Shelter (10.1 miles)
• Tuesday - Pickle Branch to Johns Spring Shelter (13.6)
• Wednesday - Johns Spring Shelter to McAffee Knob, back to VA 311 (7.5 miles)

The boys carry tents, so we don't need the shelters... I'm just using them as distance reference points. In reality, I'm thinking we'll want to even the days out a little bit, because the Pickle Branch --> Johns Spring trek looks like it might be a little bit of work (I see a couple sets of switchbacks).

It looks like we'll be able to leave our cars and trailer at VA 311, but I wasn't sure if it's cool to leave a car at VA 601 for 5 days.

Anyway... any thoughts from anyone who knows the area? Are we going to have parking issues? Is there a better stretch of trail in the area that would be recommended? Is moving water pretty easy to come across in this area?

Any input, suggestions or otherwise is appreciated.

-chuck-

[ratfaceraines]

I shuttle that area. Feel free to call anytime @540-921-7433. Don

[hikernutcasey]

First of all, kudos to you for doing this. It's not an easy undertaking and those boys are lucky to have someone so ambitious to take on a trip like that for them.

As for your plan, VA 601 is a dirt road in the middle of nowhere. I'm not sure I would want to leave a vehicle there for 5 days. Have you looked into starting at VA42 and going to Daleville? It's 52 miles. You wouldn't end at McAffee but you would get to incorporate Tinker Cliffs which I like as good if not better than McAffee anyway. Daleville would be a great end point and a safe place to leave a vehicle. On the other end at VA42 it looks like there is a country church within 1/4 mile of the trail, you could try to contact them to see if you could leave your vehicle there.

[V Eight]

Couple of things:
601 is a good place to park not much traffic way out there, just be prepared for a gravel road for about 6 miles with something like a 12 degree climb and descent. If the county hasn't been by recently the term "Washboard" does not do justus to this little stretch of road. I live like 10 miles from 311 and hike this area all the time, PM me with you Phone# for a detailed description of this whole area.

V8

[Pastor Bryon]

First of all, kudos to you for doing this. It's not an easy undertaking and those boys are lucky to have someone so ambitious to take on a trip like that for them.

As for your plan, VA 601 is a dirt road in the middle of nowhere. I'm not sure I would want to leave a vehicle there for 5 days. Have you looked into starting at VA42 and going to Daleville? It's 52 miles. You wouldn't end at McAffee but you would get to incorporate Tinker Cliffs which I like as good if not better than McAffee anyway. Daleville would be a great end point and a safe place to leave a vehicle. On the other end at VA42 it looks like there is a country church within 1/4 mile of the trail, you could try to contact them to see if you could leave your vehicle there.

+1 to this

I've done this stretch in the past year, and IMO not doing Tinker Cliffs would be a loss for your group. Logistically I believe it would be easier as well to finish in Daleville.

When during the summer are you referring to? Water shouldn't be too much of an issue, but if you are talking late summer and we have a significant drought you will want to get current updates as you get closer to the hike. Early summer I don't believe you have much to worry about.

Many wonderful stretches in Virginia, but if this is a one-time deal for your group, tough to pick a better one. Happy planning!

[-chuck-]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'll map out a few alternate plans and see what's going to work best. I like the idea of working in Tinker's Cliffs, so I'll definitely play around with that. I'm expecting a pretty decent turnout this year, so parking is definitely going to be a consideration. We'll probably have at least 4 vehicles and a trailer, so we'll be looking at leaving 3 plus the trailer at the endpoint of our trip and one at the beginning (or arranging for a shuttle for the drivers at the beginning). It looks like Daleville might be good for that.

Also, we're looking at mid-July. It seems like wherever we go, we bring rain with us, so hopefully we won't have an issue with water.

I think the detail I need to work out now is that after we come off of the trail, we're going to head up to Fayetteville, WV where we'll camp Wednesday night, then spend the day Thursday rafting on the New River. We get a pretty decent price break for rafting on a Thursday rather than Friday or the weekend, so I want to try to make that happen (a Scout is Thrifty :-D). That creates two issues: 1) The last day needs to be a bit shorter (or less strenuous) than the others (I'll need to see where we can get ahead miles-wise and where we want to camp on our last night); and 2) we're going to need to find somewhere to hose everyone off before we get in the cars for 2-1/2 hours. it looks like there's a HoJo right there in Daleville, it might be worthwhile to pay for a couple of rooms just to use the showers before we head north.

Details, details, details.

Anyway, thanks again for all of your input. Any more is appreciated. I'll keep this thread updated as we continue planning.

-chuck-

[MuddyWaters]

Thanks for the input, guys. I'll map out a few alternate plans and see what's going to work best. I like the idea of working in Tinker's Cliffs, so I'll definitely play around with that. I'm expecting a pretty decent turnout this year, so parking is definitely going to be a consideration. We'll probably have at least 4 vehicles and a trailer, so we'll be looking at leaving 3 plus the trailer at the endpoint

The maximum group size for overnight is 10.

In case you, like so many other scout leaders, are too preoccupied to look it up.

[CELTIC BUCK]

The maximum group size for overnight is 10.

"In case you, like so many other scout leaders, are too preoccupied to look it up."

Why the Slam on the Scout Leader? He is in Planning stage maybe looking at 2 groups of less than 10 each ; I don't know nor do you.. He is giving of his Time & like most Scout leaders his $$ so young people can learn .Positive attitude and asking for input is why he is here.

[MuddyWaters]

Why the Slam on the Scout Leader? He is in Planning stage maybe looking at 2 groups of less than 10 each ; I don't know nor do you.. He is giving of his Time & like most Scout leaders his $$ so young people can learn .Positive attitude and asking for input is why he is here.

I was a scout leader myself only a few yrs back.

I see a lot bring oversize scout groups onto AT

Either out of ignorance, or total disregard

Usually the latter

Violating rules reflects badly on scouting

There's no shortage of trails that a group of 20 can travel and camp on. But that's not the AT.

Sometimes self centered leaders get a bug in their shorts and try to use their troop to help them section hike the AT , while knowingly violating group size limits, and using shelters too. You can spot these people easy, they can't be dissuaded from hiking the AT, they are fixated on taking their troop on it no matter what.

[Don H]

Why the Slam on the Scout Leader? He is in Planning stage maybe looking at 2 groups of less than 10 each ; I don't know nor do you.. He is giving of his Time & like most Scout leaders his $$ so young people can learn .Positive attitude and asking for input is why he is here.

There's always one.
Thanks to everyone else who weighed in to help.

I just finished planning a Scout trip on the AT in Maryland. It's not easy finding a place to get to for Friday night, arriving in the dark, then a reasonable distance for boys (say 8 -10 miles) for a campsite on Saturday night (MD allows camping only in designated areas), then a short distance Sunday to a parking area for the ride home. Then plan vehicle shuttles for 20 - 25 people (2 or 3 groups) and making sure there's water along the way.

On the plus side Scoutmaster pay is pretty decent.

[-chuck-]

Our typical patrol size when backpacking is 6, so we will probably have either two or three groups on this trip (six is perfect because there are six pieces of "troop gear" in each patrol: fuel bottles, stove, bear bag/rope, water filter/platypus bags, cook pot, first aid kit). I personally would be fascinated to see a group of more than 6 people who hike at even remotely the same speed. Each patrol operates individually... we might rendezvous at a vista or major navigation feature (i.e. turn), but even those are short lived (Group 1 has been waiting around for 2 hours before Group 2 hits the halfway point for the day - they don't really want to stand around chit-chat at that point). Campsites are kept separate from one another... and ~25% of our group uses hammocks, so our camping impact is pretty minimal anyway.

There's no shortage of trails that a group of 20 can travel and camp on. But that's not the AT.

To be honest, there is a shortage of such trails. It's not that easy to string together 50 miles of trail that a) wouldn't have the same 10-person restrictions that the AT does and b) Anyone would actually want to hike for 5 days.

Thanks.

[PaulWorksHard]

It is not clear to me whether the 10 person limit is request or a requirement. In any event, while hiking the AT, I came across a number of groups that were 20-30 people in size. Boy scouts, church groups, college programs, etc. I find it unfortunate that very few groups respected the 10 person limit. Some simply ignored it, while others would claim they were actually 2 or 3 groups (that just happened to know each other and be camping and taking breaks at the same spot). If this is actually a real deal limit it would need nice if it was enforced.

[MuddyWaters]

It is not clear to me whether the 10 person limit is request or a requirement. In any event, while hiking the AT, I came across a number of groups that were 20-30 people in size. Boy scouts, church groups, college programs, etc. I find it unfortunate that very few groups respected the 10 person limit. Some simply ignored it, while others would claim they were actually 2 or 3 groups (that just happened to know each other and be camping and taking breaks at the same spot). If this is actually a real deal limit it would need nice if it was enforced.

Day groups may be up to 25
Overnight is 10

It is written in the compendium of orders for the AT
It is broken down by areas and maintaining organizations, but they all have the same.

Who would enforce? That's a basic problem with AT, outside of parks...there is no enforcenent...so some people do whatever they want.

A large chunk of population doesn't behave properly without being forced to.

[Pastor Bryon]

2) we're going to need to find somewhere to hose everyone off before we get in the cars for 2-1/2 hours. it looks like there's a HoJo right there in Daleville, it might be worthwhile to pay for a couple of rooms just to use the showers before we head north.

-chuck-

Might check around with other scout groups in Daleville area. One might meet at a church that has shower facilities. I can think of a couple of churches within a 5 minute drive of your outlet point that probably does.

[Hikingjim]

you're ok to park at valley cleaners in daleville. trail goes right there
I enjoyed tinker cliffs more than mcafee because it's less crowded. Mcafee is an easy hike from the parking lot so typically very crowded

[dzierzak]

From appalachiantrail.org:

"guidelines for groups on the a.t.
...
Limit group size to no more than 10 (or 25 on day hikes). Four to six is best. Traveling and camping in smaller groups reduces the physical impact to the Trail. Smaller groups also help preserve the sense of solitude and remoteness for other hikers who encounter your group
..."

[dzierzak]

BTW, some parks and area have strict group size limits, and Rangers to enforce those limits...

Part of "Plan Ahead and Prepare" or for the more simple-minded "Know Before You Go".

[slbirdnerd]

Kudos to you! I can't get our apathetic troop, leaders or parents to buy into any kind of backpacking. Since you are willing and able to take a group of young people out into the backcountry to hike, learn, experience and grow, I suggest you plan a trip that works best for your group AND be conscientious about it. There's nothing about your original post that leads me to believe you wouldn't. As for the "guidelines," if you could stick to them that'd be great--but while they have good reasoning behind them, they are guidelines... If you can't, do your best to practice and teach good LNT but don't let it keep you from getting these kids out there. There ARE places you cannot take a large group, including the national parks. Be sure to check on where you might be subject to guidelines versus policy. Contact the local trail club if you need to.

You mentioned bringing tents and not using the shelters and I think this is very admirable--do what you can to minimize your group's impact on the trail as well as others enjoying the peace of the backcountry. Insist that your Scouts are behaved and responsible.

One suggestion I saw a while back is that if you have enough leaders and parents to make it work, is split the group in two. Group one starts at the north end of your hike and group 2 at the south. You plan to camp together one night as a large group at the halfway point where you'll share stories, experiences and exchange keys!

In GA a couple summers ago I met a Troop on their 50-miler. Even though they were a large group, they were doing great and conducting themselves according to the Scout Law. I was impressed. There are more like us out there than not, don't let the idiots who make the news spoil it for the Scouts.

Have a great hike!

[Hikingjim]

Maximum group size of 10? that's unfortunate considering 80 people can set up in and round a shelter in the thru-hiker bubble, and all hike in close proximity
Groups like scouts shouldn't be discouraged from the best hiking opportunities.
When I hiked the West Coast trail in Canada I passed about 5 scout or school groups in about 4 days. And this trail has a lot of obstacles and comes with some additional risk. It was impressive to see

[Just Tom]

I consider out troop to be fortunate being locate in CT, where there are dedicated group camping sites on the AT, which provides ample space for a group of ten and a bit (or a lot) of distance from shelters and other people. Of course, I have also come across a pair of backpackers taking up a group site that was clearly marked as a group site, so it goes both ways.

We have broken into two groups going opposite directions from the same starting point, and done the criss-cross style as well where you meet in the middle. It all depends on the logistics requirements of the trip.