Bivies and Rain

[Time Zone]

I originally had gotten the idea of the Ursack from a fellow hiker who had one and it seemed like something that would give me more flexibility by not necessarily having to hang it. Then I got to thinking that even if a bear could not get the food, I just might end up with a sack of flour after a bear gets done chewing on it. So I'm thinking that perhaps the sacrifice of weight for the canister might be worth it (My pack is down to 30# including food and water for a five-day rip) for the convenience of just being able to lay it on the ground some distance away.

Keep in mind that the Ursack offers considerable flexibility in terms of packing your pack. It takes up less room in your pack when you don't need to fill it entirely - the Bear Vault is not malleable that way. Second, reports are that in the Adirondacks, bears have figured out how to open it. It may only be a matter of time before black bears in other parts figure it out too. Third, I think one theory goes that if a bear learns they can't get in the Ursack, they may stop trying to defeat them - so smashed up food isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion (they also sell an aluminum liner to protect against this). Fourth, bear containers can be moved by the bear and could be hard to find later. Fifth, if you don't need the full volume of the bear canister and use the empty space to pack other things, would they end up smelling like food too, and is that a concern? Sixth, the BV is reputed to be quite difficult to open in cold weather.

I don't have either, yet, but I definitely lean toward the Ursack, especially if they soon release one that is both bear resistant and critter resistant. Right now I think they offer two distinct types, but neither covers both risks.

[Time Zone]

Second, reports are that in the Adirondacks, bears have figured out how to open it. It may only be a matter of time before black bears in other parts figure it out too.

"... figured out how to open the Bear Vault. ... " that is

[nsherry61]

"... figured out how to open the Bear Vault. ... " that is

My understanding is that one sow and her cubs that she has taught the trick to have opened Bear Vaults in the high peaks region of the Adirondacks.
. . . not necessarily something that will become a problem broadly beyond that one bear and her family.

FWIW there was a sow in Denali National Park, in the 80's, that learned to open the Garcia canisters by sitting on them and deforming them enough to pop the lid off. The Denali rangers did some successful behavior modification with fake camps, high powered rifles and rubber bullets.

[rocketsocks]

My understanding is that one sow and her cubs that she has taught the trick to have opened Bear Vaults in the high peaks region of the Adirondacks.
. . . not necessarily something that will become a problem broadly beyond that one bear and her family.

FWIW there was a sow in Denali National Park, in the 80's, that learned to open the Garcia canisters by sitting on them and deforming them enough to pop the lid off. The Denali rangers did some successful behavior modification with fake camps, high powered rifles and rubber bullets.

Darwin might disagree...or one of his decendants anyway.

[nsherry61]

Darwin might disagree...or one of his decendants anyway.

Only if what food is removed from bear canisters increases the survival rate of that bear family and all their decedents, which I doubt.

[Dogwood]

My understanding is that one sow and her cubs that she has taught the trick to have opened Bear Vaults in the high peaks region of the Adirondacks.
. . . not necessarily something that will become a problem broadly beyond that one bear and her family.

FWIW there was a sow in Denali National Park, in the 80's, that learned to open the Garcia canisters by sitting on them and deforming them enough to pop the lid off. The Denali rangers did some successful behavior modification with fake camps, high powered rifles and rubber bullets.

we are seriously inn need of some human behavior modification

[Time Zone]

My understanding is that one sow and her cubs that she has taught the trick to have opened Bear Vaults in the high peaks region of the Adirondacks.
. . . not necessarily something that will become a problem broadly beyond that one bear and her family.

Yes, not necessarily. But if one discovered it independently in NYS, another could discover it in some other time and place.
I have seen a couple examples of BVs being actually broken by a bear. IIRC, one of those examples, the bear tossed it off a cliff and on to some rocks! Clever bear.

This is sort of like the inverse of "build a better mousetrap - [evolution will] build a better mouse." Here we're trying to dissuade the bear rather than entice it, yet we keep having to improve our game. It's quite the back and forth.

If I get an Ursack I would probably try to hang it anyway, to avoid the crushing of food risk, unless it's better to have it tied to a tree directly so it can't be run off with.

[Bronk]

Would you rather spend a rainy day in a tent or a bivy? You can spread your gear out in a tent.

[rocketsocks]

"Bevies in the Rain" sounds like a song title.

[TwoRoads]

Just to update, I took a trip to REI to make some purchases. I bought a few stuff sacks to replace ones that were worn and I took Sandy's suggestion on the bear canister. Only I bought the model 500, because I actually have a through-hike planned with a friend for 2018 and wanted the extra room for the longer-than anticipated sections that I know will occur. I know I said that a decision on a tent was not a priority at this time, but after some research, I found that I really liked the Big Agnes Copper Spur UL1. Well I found it on sale for $95 off the list price at REI, so now I own it. I still have some other gear tweaks I will be looking at, but for now, I'll let my budget recover and enjoy my new purchases. I want everyone to know your suggestions (all of them) gave me valuable information and as a result, I think I'll be very happy with my decisions. Thanks, all, and happy hiking!

[Wise Old Owl]

I have been using a bivy for several years, but recently decided to switch back to a tent. The biggest problem isn't rain bleeding through the bivy, but the condensation that doesn't escape. Any time I zip the bivy up to keep the elements out, I end up keeping the condensation in.

I bought a REI Quarter Doom tent that is essentially the same weight as my bivy or my hammock.

I honestly think if a bivy had a rain flap running the length of the unit 4 " off the ground with a 3/4 mosquito vent frond the foot box .............would life not be better? Some of the more expensive ones feature something on this.

[Wise Old Owl]

Would you rather spend a rainy day in a tent or a bivy? You can spread your gear out in a tent.

A tarp and a bivy would be lighter than a tent...

CLICK HERE

[nsherry61]

A tarp and a bivy would be lighter than a tent...

And a tarp without a bivy is lighter than a tarp with a bivy.
Although, that above setup looks pretty dope.

[Franco]

"A tarp and a bivy would be lighter than a tent..."
true but as it can be clearly seen in that shot, if there is wind with the rain and it changes direction you need to get out and set up the tarp again. Too bad if you can't turn it so that the sides are into the wind.

[Malto]

"A tarp and a bivy would be lighter than a tent..."
true but as it can be clearly seen in that shot, if there is wind with the rain and it changes direction you need to get out and set up the tarp again. Too bad if you can't turn it so that the sides are into the wind.

And a mid and bivy is lighter than a tent with none of the issues that you mention.

[nsherry61]

"A tarp and a bivy would be lighter than a tent..."
true but as it can be clearly seen in that shot, if there is wind with the rain and it changes direction you need to get out and set up the tarp again. Too bad if you can't turn it so that the sides are into the wind.

Or, you pitch the tarp in a more enclosed manner facing into some protection and/or use a slightly larger tarp to provide a more palatial abode and you're fine. If you use a bigger tarp, adding the material volume to account for only 1/2 of the bivy weight, you could shelter yet another person under the tarp and keep both of you reasonably dry.

With a little practice, it is really is surprisingly easy to shelter yourself surprisingly effectively in a surprisingly small tarp.