Damn Kids Caused the ChimneyTop2 Fires

[gracebowen]

Yeah that argument is bull****. I was taking care of my younger sister from the age of 8 while my parents worked. they're teenagers not two.

It is not bs. Science backs it up and SCOTUS say death and life without parole is cruel and unusual punishment for minors. So even SCOTUS recognizes mitigating circumstance of youth.

[gracebowen]

Another says to take disobedient youths out past the edge of town and stone them to death. I'll pass on that authority, thank you.

Knowledge without wisdom

[gracebowen]

...there's another one that says "spare thy rod spoil thy child"

Knowledge without wisdom

[gracebowen]

Knowledge without wisdom

Post made in error. Please disregard.

[gracebowen]

Uugh. Rocketsocks please disregard. Post made in error.

[HooKooDooKu]

Certainly possible that other fires started in the same area around the time that the original one was spreading and became "blended" into each other. Might also be tough to tell what the cause was for any specific area exactly unless someone (such as this person mentioned) did actually see a wire come down and/or start a fire, given the overall amount of fire and areas it covered.




Based on the postings, it started on the 23rd (Wed before Thanksgiving). Perhaps a family(ies) that was out camping (I don't know about that area, but here many of the schools had that day off) and the two youth decided to go out for a hike on their own, either with (or without) knowledge of those they were with?

For those that don't know the area, the original fire started at the end of a day-use only trail that is only accessible by car. There are no campsites nearby, and if there were, there was a ban on all open fires in the park at the time due to the drought.

And to those that know the area well, yes I know you can reach the Chimney Tops from the AT, and it's not impossible to ride a bike to the trailhead either. But from a practical stand point for the purpose of this discussion, you can take that statement to be true.

So the teenager charged with arson, they were either just old enough that one of them drove to the trailhead, or they were on a dayhike with family.

[doritotex]

Saturday, December 10, 2016
by Jim Miller - Radio Greeneville News

---

According to published reports, the two teenagers charged with arson in connection with the Gatlinburg wildfire had been horsing around with matches prior to the start of the blaze.

The report from the Knoxville News Sentinel cited a source close to the investigation who said that the boys are ages 17 and 15 and from Anderson County. On November 23, the teens were hiking on the Chimney Tops trail in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park when a hiker saw them tossing lit matches on the ground around the trail.

The hiker captured an image of the boys walking away from the trail, and their clothing assisted investigators in being able to identify them.

The current charges of aggravated arson would not qualify the younger boy for a transfer into adult court, but the older defendant would be able to be transferred if prosecutors can convince a Juvenile Court judge to approve the transfer.

Earlier this week, Fourth Judicial District Attorney General James Dunn said that additional charges are being considered against the teens, after more than 2,400 buildings were damaged or destroyed and 14 people were killed in the fire.

The teenagers remain at the Sevier County Juvenile Detention Center since being taken into custody on Wednesday.

[gracebowen]

I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.

[Puddlefish]

I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.

Try this easy and fun experiment. Pile up a some really dry leaves and pine needles on the sofa in your living room, or uses some tissues if you don't have leaves. Stack some kindling around it. Then nail shut all of your windows and doors. Flick a few dozen matches at the tissues, and report back to us on your theory if you're still alive. Don't do this, I'm being snarky. Smoldering material can and does start fires.

[imscotty]

Yes, the boys behavior was grossly irresponsible. They need to be held accountable for this. They are probably sh**ing themselves right now in fear in Juvenile detention, as they should be. That is a start.

They need to understand the magnitude of the harm they have done, they need to feel that burden in their hearts and souls, they need to express regret. Hopefully they will learn from this experience, hopefully there can be some forgiveness from the community, hopefully on the other side of this they will still have lives worth living.

[rafe]

I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.

Are you serious? In what reality do you reside?

[Don H]

I dont see how tossing a lit match can be responsible.ive tossed lit matches before and they went out on the way down.

This has to be the most irresponsible post ever. Congratulations!

[gracebowen]

Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.

[gracebowen]

Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.

And then theres this.

http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327

Out of 75 butts tossed in controlled conditions only 3 started a fire

[Hosh]

Here you go https://smokeybear.com/en

[Time Zone]

Jeez instead of being such jerks how about explaining it to me so I can learn something.

And then theres this.

http://www.fire.nsw.gov.au/page.php?id=327

Out of 75 butts tossed in controlled conditions only 3 started a fire

You may be unaware of the extraordinary drought conditions that were present in this part of the United States. It is much easier to accidentally start a fire under such dry conditions, esp. with high winds.

with respect to your lit matches going out, all it takes is one that doesn't go out. They're not going to all go out, esp. in drought conditions with wind. You just can't do stuff like that in these conditions, it's too dangerous. Over a dozen killed and thousands of buildings damaged/destroyed. Your argument would be fine if you were the only one potentially hurt by a low probability event (and in the given conditions it may not have been low), but there was widespread risk to others. Even if your Australian stats were right and applicable here, are you suggesting you'd voluntarily take a 1 in 25 chance of killing 14 people? When there's no risk of starting a fire that way if you simply refrain from throwing lit matches or cigarette butts? I can't believe you're downplaying this.

[George]

reality check - OJ got away with real murder --- planned, bloody, intentional, hands on --- because he had the money for top legal defense

many here are calling for punishment that would be appropriate for OJ's crime

as described, this was highly irresponsible action - similar to driving intoxicated

who is so innocent to cast the 1st stone?? certainly not I

most likely outcome: public defender will plea this to a reduced charge, time served and probation - again, less of a miscarriage of justice than OJ

IMO anyone with a second DUI (or refusal to test) should do more time than these kids

[Feral Bill]

Yes, the boys behavior was grossly irresponsible. They need to be held accountable for this. They are probably sh**ing themselves right now in fear in Juvenile detention, as they should be. That is a start.

They need to understand the magnitude of the harm they have done, they need to feel that burden on their hearts and souls, they need to express regret. Hopefully they will learn from this experience, hopefully there can be some forgiveness from the community, hopefully on the other side of this they will still have lives worth living.

+1.........

[Emerson Bigills]

Unless they were smokers, they really didn't need any fire starting devices on a day hike of that duration. Especially at that age. If they were smokers and were tossing multiple lit matches on the trail in drought conditions they were grossly irresponsible and likely in violation of the burn ban. The loss of trees, wildlife, property and lives is a sad tale. Maybe privy cleaning duty for 5 years in the Smokies would be a way to repay back some to society.

[illabelle]

From the Knoxville News Sentinel, if anybody is interested in more detail:

The teenagers charged with setting the fire in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that ultimately spread to torch thousands of homes and businesses and kill 14 people were horsing around with matches, sources say.

The boys, ages 17 and 15, were charged this week in Sevier County Juvenile Court with aggravated arson in the Nov. 28 wildfires that shut down the city of Gatlinburg at the height of its winter tourism season and damaged or destroyed more than 2,400 homes and businesses. The death toll included two children and a woman who died fleeing the flames
Fourth Judicial District Attorney General Jimmy Dunn, whose jurisdiction includes Sevier County, and Tennessee Bureau of Investigation Director Mark Gwyn announced the teens' arrests Wednesday but refused to reveal any details. State law shields from the public most documents and information on juvenile defendants in all but the most serious cases, such as murder and rape. Aggravated arson is not on the list of the most serious charges.
Sources familiar with the teenagers and the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly about the case say the two boys are friends and live in Anderson County. The boys were hiking on the Chimney Tops trail in the park on Nov. 23 and tossing lit matches onto the ground around the trail, the sources said. A hiker unwittingly captured an image of the boys walking away from the trail with smoke in the background, and the teenagers' clothing helped authorities identify them, according to sources.


The oldest boy is the son of an Anderson County Sheriff's Office employee, according to sources. The News Sentinel has learned 4th Judicial District Public Defender Ed Miller has been tapped to represent the 17-year-old, while veteran Knoxville defense attorney Gregory P. Isaacs has been retained by the family of the younger teen. Miller did not return a phone call Friday. Isaacs would not say whether he represents the boy.
Dunn also did not return a phone call Friday. A detention hearing for the boys set for Friday was delayed.
The two friends are in separate legal postures as they are currently charged. Aggravated arson is not a qualifying offense that would allow a judge to transfer the 15-year-old to be tried as an adult in Criminal Court. Under state law, prosecutors can seek to transfer defendants under the age of 16 to adult court only if they are charged with a set list of the most heinous crimes, including murder, rape, robbery and kidnapping. But the law allows a 17-year-old defendant to be tried as an adult for any crime if prosecutors can convince a Juvenile Court judge to grant the transfer.
Dunn said at a news conference this week that "additional charges are being considered and all options are on the table, including transfer of these juveniles to adult Criminal Court."
The boys are not charged in the fire deaths, but aggravated arson is a crime for which a charge of felony murder — a death that results from the commission of certain felonies -- can be legally supported. If Dunn seeks felony murder charges, the 15-year-old boy would then qualify to be considered for trial as an adult.
The teenagers remain in juvenile detention in Sevier County.
Authorities have said they believe last week's deadly wildfires began with the Nov. 23 blaze at Chimney Tops. The fire initially did not pose a threat to Gatlinburg or surrounding areas, but on Nov. 28, hurricane-style winds hit Sevier County and spread the embers of the fire already burning in the park to lower elevations. Prosecutors would need to show the boy's actions - by playing with matches - directly resulted in the deaths of the fire victims. Any action or inaction by the National Park Service in handling the Chimney Tops blaze would come into play should felony murder charges be sought.

http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/c...fire/95210356/