When does AT visitor level become unsustainable?

[ki0eh]

The A.T. through the mid-Atlantic was explicitly designed to be relatively near the major Eastern Seaboard cities. But you can drive out to the GET routes as quickly now as one could to the A.T. then.

And, though Duncannon may be a fine little borough, in equivalent position in PA along the GET is State College, a Big Ten university town with considerably more offerings such as an outfitter, Wegmans, Penn State ice cream, several brewpubs, etc.

Some answers were offered in this thread: https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/sho...-Eastern-Trail

[rocketsocks]

When the ATC says so

[Malto]

I think there is an easy answer to overcrowding on the AT. Relocate ALL of the shelters to interstate 95 and allow walking on the shoulder. Hiker Feds could be done at rest areas, yellow blazing and resupplies would be a cinch. Perfect solution.

[Another Kevin]

The A.T. through the mid-Atlantic was explicitly designed to be relatively near the major Eastern Seaboard cities. But you can drive out to the GET routes as quickly now as one could to the A.T. then.

The two ends of the Northville-Placid Trail were train stations. (Neither one is still in service.)

[Curious G]

Funny you should mention "other trails"

NC has the MST (Mountains to Sea Trail) that runs from Clingman's Dome to Jockey's Ridge on the Outer Banks. It was proposed about 39 years, 51 weeks, 3 days ago. On September 10 there's a "MST in a Day" event to raise awareness for the trail to help drive completion. (In many areas it just runs along secondary roads.)

Of the 300 segments about 240-250 are covered. My family is signed up for 4 segments (including my wife, who is in kidney failure!) and we may cover a couple more to help knock it all out. I just became aware of the event a couple of weeks ago and I suspect others may not be aware, so if you're in or near NC (specifically the SE corner, around Wilmington-Jacksonville) check out the MST In a Day web page and sign up for a segment or three.

It's 1175 miles end-end, which is a decent trek. When it's completed as a "real" trail I suspect it will draw a fair bit of traffic.

As far as "Why the AT?" For me it's a culmination of 40 years of thinking and anticipation. An older cousin mentioned a section hike to me when I was 10 years old, but it never came to fruition. I've thought about it off and on in the years since and have started on preparations to start tacking some sections and hope that one day I can take the time for a thru hike.

I tried this and a two week hike was cut to two days. It sucked. It's definitely not a "real trail". It's you wandering around parks, greenways, roads, bike paths, and pretty much back yards with people looking at you like you are crazy or they are. There is absolutely no legal camping. No water. No amenities or access to them. And the total lack of local awareness means you are just another homeless trespasser. I'm interested in going back with my motorized bicycle, a small pistol, a little day pack, and hotel money, probably lots of hotel, beer, and pizza money. And other people.

[ki0eh]

The two ends of the Northville-Placid Trail were train stations. (Neither one is still in service.)

Thanks, I never knew the significance of the Northville end.

[Another Kevin]

Thanks, I never knew the significance of the Northville end.

The station isn't there at all any more - it's under the lake. There's a plaque at the bridge the trail crosses going into town.

[KDogg]

I'd say the Whites are already being heavily impacted from overuse. Those sections where the trail is pure granite with no soil. The trail on those areas is getting wider and wider because folks are using the trees at the sides of the trail to get up the mountain because they can't get enough traction hiking up the center of the trail. Whatever soil is on the sides of those trails is eroding off as the plant life is being walked on. Or how about those sections in bog where the bog bridges are rotten and haven't been replaced and everyone is walking where it is 'dry' and screwing up the trail and its accompanying delicate plant life. These areas will require extensive restoration or 'maintenance' to get the trail back to its original state.

[LoneStranger]

I'd say the Whites are already being heavily impacted from overuse. Those sections where the trail is pure granite with no soil. The trail on those areas is getting wider and wider because folks are using the trees at the sides of the trail to get up the mountain because they can't get enough traction hiking up the center of the trail. Whatever soil is on the sides of those trails is eroding off as the plant life is being walked on. Or how about those sections in bog where the bog bridges are rotten and haven't been replaced and everyone is walking where it is 'dry' and screwing up the trail and its accompanying delicate plant life. These areas will require extensive restoration or 'maintenance' to get the trail back to its original state.

Now you are talking about the infrastructure that is important as opposed to more parking lots. Ladders for those rock slabs and keeping the boards above the mud are where the money should be spent (if anyone had money to spend). Anything to get people to stay in the middle of the trail rather than pulling out trees and stomping the dirt off the edges.

[The Old Chief]

I tried this and a two week hike was cut to two days. It sucked. It's definitely not a "real trail". It's you wandering around parks, greenways, roads, bike paths, and pretty much back yards with people looking at you like you are crazy or they are. There is absolutely no legal camping. No water. No amenities or access to them. And the total lack of local awareness means you are just another homeless trespasser. I'm interested in going back with my motorized bicycle, a small pistol, a little day pack, and hotel money, probably lots of hotel, beer, and pizza money. And other people.

I don't know where you were hiking but it definitely wasn't the Mountains to Sea Trail in North Carolina. And it's obvious you've never visited the MST website which abundantly describes everything you couldn't find on your extensive 2 day hike. I would ask that you re-visit the trail in our State, but on second thought, please stay wherever you are with your moped, little day pack, hotel money, and beer and pizza money.

[Curious G]

I don't know where you were hiking but it definitely wasn't the Mountains to Sea Trail in North Carolina. And it's obvious you've never visited the MST website which abundantly describes everything you couldn't find on your extensive 2 day hike. I would ask that you re-visit the trail in our State, but on second thought, please stay wherever you are with your moped, little day pack, hotel money, and beer and pizza money.

Really Old Chief? When have you hiked the Raleigh section of the Neuse River Trail? Do you deny that it is a bunch of greenways and parks strung together for like 100 miles in both directions where camping is illegal and the homeless wander around at night like in a zombie movie? That's NC and I was there this spring on the MST and it was crap like total crap. And that website is what lured me in by painting a rosy picture of what should be called the Wishful Thinking Trail. It makes the FT look really put together. Thank God we brought the car! We went looking for MST sections that don't suck and found the pictures on the website are the only places that are cool and drove to them on our way to the GSMNP which saved our vacation. Along with our vacation money and us from being either mugged, arrested for trespass, or shot for same. It's an open carry state but you knew that which is why you omitted it from your snarky little comments. I'm curious why there are so many cheerleaders doing the rah rah for this nonexistent trail. I'd like to hear all of your many stories from having hiked the entire MST or have you? It's not "our state" it's my country, and I'll go where I darn well please with whatever I wish just as though I were still in America. And like I said, it's a bicycle with a motor not a moped which makes sense since just a little peek at the MST online will show you that you can pretty much ride a bike from Winston Salem to the ocean because it's not a hiking trail it's a dag gum bike path dude. Keep it real.

[Curious G]

Like Columbo said: One more thing! This subject really chaps my burro because I saved for a year to take a hike on the MST as an alternate to the crowded AT and ended up wasting time and money only to end up on the crowded AT anyhow. I'd like to hear from the big time MST fans with answers to questions everyone should know. Like what percentage of the MST is paved? What percentage is a paved road with traffic that exposes you to the general public? What percentage actually closes at sundown? Where is the camping, or how long are stretches where there is none allowed by law and how many of these stretches are there? Yeah, that's right: imagine a trail that's mostly paved, with no camping, that's often private land, or public park that's closed at night. Where you could be hit by a car. Forget about the water issue for a second. Forget about the resupply thing. Think about no camping and closed in the dark. That means you could still be "hiking" (up the paved bike path) and still be arrested for trespassing with no place to go on either side to camp for miles. Zero campsites. Like miles of endless greenway where the water is uh let's keep it polite and say not potable. Even the name is silly when you think about and as misleading as the website as the mountains and sea are definitely not connected by a trail. Anybody who says 'yet' has just left a safety meeting, or thinks that if you close your eyes and repeat "I do believe in fairies" that it will come true. And I love NC too BTW.

[The Old Chief]

Really Old Chief? When have you hiked the Raleigh section of the Neuse River Trail? Do you deny that it is a bunch of greenways and parks strung together for like 100 miles in both directions where camping is illegal and the homeless wander around at night like in a zombie movie? That's NC and I was there this spring on the MST and it was crap like total crap. And that website is what lured me in by painting a rosy picture of what should be called the Wishful Thinking Trail. It makes the FT look really put together. Thank God we brought the car! We went looking for MST sections that don't suck and found the pictures on the website are the only places that are cool and drove to them on our way to the GSMNP which saved our vacation. Along with our vacation money and us from being either mugged, arrested for trespass, or shot for same. It's an open carry state but you knew that which is why you omitted it from your snarky little comments. I'm curious why there are so many cheerleaders doing the rah rah for this nonexistent trail. I'd like to hear all of your many stories from having hiked the entire MST or have you? It's not "our state" it's my country, and I'll go where I darn well please with whatever I wish just as though I were still in America. And like I said, it's a bicycle with a motor not a moped which makes sense since just a little peek at the MST online will show you that you can pretty much ride a bike from Winston Salem to the ocean because it's not a hiking trail it's a dag gum bike path dude. Keep it real.

I will dispense with any "snarky comments" and gladly acknowledge that you are the king of snarky comments. Yes, I have hiked the MST which is so named because it starts at Clingmans Dome and ends at Jockeys Ridge State Park on the Outer Banks at the Atlantic Ocean. You can verify my journey by going to Trailjournals.com and search for my journals there. With over 600 miles of trail off of paved highways we're making good progress. Just because we use paved roads in sections to make the trek across the State doesn't mean it's not a "trail." In earlier times the AT used many miles of paved roads and dirt roads as it made its way from Georgia to Maine. It was still a trail then just as it is still a trail now.
Just as with the AT you need to do your planning if you're going to tackle the MST. With a car and a moped you would never have trouble accessing water, food, or shelter. If you're looking for a wilderness experience comparable to some trails in your State you'll be disappointed on the MST, although the Mt Mitchell and Linville Gorge, Harpers Creek sections offer plenty of wilderness hiking. We're close to having 100 miles of off road trail through the most urban populated section of the State utilizing greenways, parks, and Federal lands. And there are 2 designated campsites so far in this 100 miles. Sorry, you didn't find them. We do recognize that paved roads are hard for some hikers so we allow biking (non-motorized) on paved sections of the trail to count towards completions of a thru-hike or section hike.

[Curious G]

So you're the guy. C'mon Chief, now you're name-calling. And you dodged some critical questions there too. But first, who is "we"? Are oui French? "With over 600 miles of trail off of paved highways we're making good progress." Is a slippery way of saying the MST is almost half an actual trail, and the other half highways where a trail should be. (The MST being 1175 miles long. Allegedly.) Further complicating matters the half a trail you do have isn't one complete piece. So really it's irritating and confusing halves of trail and highways alternately all over the place. And again, just because you technically can call it a trail doesn't suddenly make walking down a highway safe or pleasant. And you fail to acknowledge the other truths I mentioned regarding the half a trail that you do have, like those sections are also paved bike paths and/or public parks sandwiched between private property that are closed from dawn to dusk with no place to camp and/or no place to camp legally with little or no water and no way to even get to anything. Furthermore, the crappy misleading website shows nothing off of the so-called trail. So you have to phone GPS everything and tough it out like where is the nearest store etc. In reality you'd be better off just biking down country roads or hitching to avoid the confusion altogether.

[Theosus]

Alot of us do. I only use the AT in 'off-season'
Something about crowds, trash, and little wads of toilet paper turns my attention elsewhere.

I'm the same way. Hike in the north before the bubble, and in the south afterwards. And any time in winter...
I've done a three day hike in TN in the winter and been completely alone except for our group of 6. We saw NO other hikers in 35 miles. We did SOBO into Damascus in February, saw two hikers in two days over 20 miles. Three weeks ago, 3 of us did a hike from Sam Gap to Erwin, TN. Two days of walking 24 miles, and we saw two other backpackers, and 2 day hikers with a dog. NOT crowded.
And - I've been caught in the bubble - after last year's fires I made the mistake of going into Erwin with a bunch of thrus that were delayed by fires. The trail's shelter and camping areas were packed, but there was still plenty of room to walk on the trail, it wasn't like a Disney World queue line.
The AT only seems to get crowded in certain places at certain times. Avoid those places and times and everything will be good. I think as the population of thru-hikers grows, more people will need to flip-flop in order to make sure shelters and privies aren't way overcrowded. I can't imagine trying to thru-hike with a big crowd in March. If it were me, I'd start at the ATC, walk to Maine, then flip to Springer and walk to the ATC to finish up.

[RangerZ]

+ many for Penn State ice cream, we've often detoured to the Creamery.

The A.T. through the mid-Atlantic was explicitly designed to be relatively near the major Eastern Seaboard cities. But you can drive out to the GET routes as quickly now as one could to the A.T. then.

And, though Duncannon may be a fine little borough, in equivalent position in PA along the GET is State College, a Big Ten university town with considerably more offerings such as an outfitter, Wegmans, Penn State ice cream, several brewpubs, etc.



Some answers were offered in this thread: https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/sho...-Eastern-Trail

[The Old Chief]

I'm the same way. Hike in the north before the bubble, and in the south afterwards. And any time in winter...
I've done a three day hike in TN in the winter and been completely alone except for our group of 6. We saw NO other hikers in 35 miles. We did SOBO into Damascus in February, saw two hikers in two days over 20 miles. Three weeks ago, 3 of us did a hike from Sam Gap to Erwin, TN. Two days of walking 24 miles, and we saw two other backpackers, and 2 day hikers with a dog. NOT crowded.
And - I've been caught in the bubble - after last year's fires I made the mistake of going into Erwin with a bunch of thrus that were delayed by fires. The trail's shelter and camping areas were packed, but there was still plenty of room to walk on the trail, it wasn't like a Disney World queue line.
The AT only seems to get crowded in certain places at certain times. Avoid those places and times and everything will be good. I think as the population of thru-hikers grows, more people will need to flip-flop in order to make sure shelters and privies aren't way overcrowded. I can't imagine trying to thru-hike with a big crowd in March. If it were me, I'd start at the ATC, walk to Maine, then flip to Springer and walk to the ATC to finish up.

You're right about hiking "off season". In Southern and Central Virginia during March and April you might see two other hikers a day other than the ones you may be hiking with. If you want to use the shelters they are empty during this time. I've also hiked South on the AT in Georgia during the bubble in March and encountered very few hikers except at shelters. I put up my tent at the Cheese Factory site about 4 in the afternoon and didn't see another human until about 10 the next morning. That evening at Low Gap Shelter there must have been 40 people. I think that as peoples' desires and interests change the AT could become less crowded. I can remember back in the 70s the Blue Ridge Parkway was always crowded with vehicles on weekends. Now, not so much. Things change.

[The Old Chief]

So you're the guy. C'mon Chief, now you're name-calling. And you dodged some critical questions there too. But first, who is "we"? Are oui French? "With over 600 miles of trail off of paved highways we're making good progress." Is a slippery way of saying the MST is almost half an actual trail, and the other half highways where a trail should be. (The MST being 1175 miles long. Allegedly.) Further complicating matters the half a trail you do have isn't one complete piece. So really it's irritating and confusing halves of trail and highways alternately all over the place. And again, just because you technically can call it a trail doesn't suddenly make walking down a highway safe or pleasant. And you fail to acknowledge the other truths I mentioned regarding the half a trail that you do have, like those sections are also paved bike paths and/or public parks sandwiched between private property that are closed from dawn to dusk with no place to camp and/or no place to camp legally with little or no water and no way to even get to anything. Furthermore, the crappy misleading website shows nothing off of the so-called trail. So you have to phone GPS everything and tough it out like where is the nearest store etc. In reality you'd be better off just biking down country roads or hitching to avoid the confusion altogether.

Let’s see now, according to you, you planned for a year totravel 2000 miles by car to do a section hike of the MST on a two weekvacation. On your way to Raleigh, where you attempted to hike, you passed by sectionsof the MST in GSNP (thoroughly described in the MST guidebook). Then you passed by other sections of the MSTincluding hikes over Mt. Mitchell and 66 miles of wilderness hiking through theLinville Gorge and Harpers Creek wilderness areas ( thoroughly described in theMST guidebook).When you arrived at yourplanned destination you were upset that in one of the most urban sections ofthe State on the MST you found greenways, not wilderness.And at the same time there was nowhere toobtain food or potable water or lodging.Segment 11B, the segment you hiked for 2 days is 66 miles long.The MST guidebook clearly defines sevendifferent lodging choices within one mile of this segment.The guidebook lists seven different sourcesof free potable water, none any further than .1 mile off trail for thissegment.The guidebook lists 11 sourcesfor food, only one as far as one mile off trail.In this segment you would also walk down themain street of Clayton, NC past several restaurants.I don’t blame you for being upset, not at theMST, roadwalks, homeless people, muggings, me, or getting shot for trespassing,but at yourself for poor planning.

[Curious G]

Let’s see now, according to you, you planned for a year totravel 2000 miles by car to do a section hike of the MST on a two weekvacation. On your way to Raleigh, where you attempted to hike, you passed by sectionsof the MST in GSNP (thoroughly described in the MST guidebook). Then you passed by other sections of the MSTincluding hikes over Mt. Mitchell and 66 miles of wilderness hiking through theLinville Gorge and Harpers Creek wilderness areas ( thoroughly described in theMST guidebook).When you arrived at yourplanned destination you were upset that in one of the most urban sections ofthe State on the MST you found greenways, not wilderness.And at the same time there was nowhere toobtain food or potable water or lodging.Segment 11B, the segment you hiked for 2 days is 66 miles long.The MST guidebook clearly defines sevendifferent lodging choices within one mile of this segment.The guidebook lists seven different sourcesof free potable water, none any further than .1 mile off trail for thissegment.The guidebook lists 11 sourcesfor food, only one as far as one mile off trail.In this segment you would also walk down themain street of Clayton, NC past several restaurants.I don’t blame you for being upset, not at theMST, roadwalks, homeless people, muggings, me, or getting shot for trespassing,but at yourself for poor planning.

No. It was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick. The MST stinks. That's an open and shut case. You are correct however insofar as planning. Given the strange tendency for "hikers" to talk about it in glowing terms coupled with the rosy picture put fourth on the website and a lack of other sources I was completely unprepared to find myself urban orienteering and accidentally committing acts of vagrancy while trying to take a leisurely vacation. And when I say I saved up and planned for a year I didn't go into my war room and construct a battle plan. I did what most folks do. Took some savings and what info I could find along with a loaf of bread and some tea in a sack and hopped over the back fence headed for where there is supposed to be a trail. Just one little problem. There isn't one. You've convinced yourself it's there self justification theory being what it is, now stop trying to convince the rest of us. Hike the A.T. off season and wait for the 1/2 finished MST to be 100% complete and user friendly before you get incredibly disappointed. Yes, in yourself - like I was. I came away feeling like a sucker but I did what hikers do. Backed up, regrouped, adapted, overcame, found the path, and had a blast. Plus I learned an important lesson: the MST is literally a broken trail. Don't worry though, in about 100 years my great great grand kids will love it. On bikes with motors, pistols, small day packs, and an American Express Gold Card. File under: don't believe the hype.

[MuddyWaters]

No. It was Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick. The MST stinks. That's an open and shut case. You are correct however insofar as planning. Given the strange tendency for "hikers" to talk about it in glowing terms coupled with the rosy picture put fourth on the website and a lack of other sources I was completely unprepared to find myself urban orienteering and accidentally committing acts of vagrancy while trying to take a leisurely vacation. And when I say I saved up and planned for a year I didn't go into my war room and construct a battle plan. I did what most folks do. Took some savings and what info I could find along with a loaf of bread and some tea in a sack and hopped over the back fence headed for where there is supposed to be a trail. Just one little problem. There isn't one. You've convinced yourself it's there self justification theory being what it is, now stop trying to convince the rest of us. Hike the A.T. off season and wait for the 1/2 finished MST to be 100% complete and user friendly before you get incredibly disappointed. Yes, in yourself - like I was. I came away feeling like a sucker but I did what hikers do. Backed up, regrouped, adapted, overcame, found the path, and had a blast. Plus I learned an important lesson: the MST is literally a broken trail. Don't worry though, in about 100 years my great great grand kids will love it. On bikes with motors, pistols, small day packs, and an American Express Gold Card. File under: don't believe the hype.

Even Wikipedia states its about half complete in disconnected segements in the first paragraph.

AT is no stranger to peoples backyards and going down main street of towns either in limited areas still.