Harvey Lewis - 2018 AT Supported FKT Attempt

[chknfngrs]

John Z could never set an FKT on the AT in any category. He doesn’t like the AT and he doesn’t respect it. It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him. He’s a west coast hiker through and through.

I think you should clarify that statement and say would never because he most certainly could but as you said and I agree he does not particularly care a profuse amount for the AT

[brew]

Maybe it's 50/50 but I still lean toward Hardrock being more like Barkley than a traditional 100 miler. The cutoffs and elevation change, plus the fact that a guy like Jared won it, tells me it leans that way. But yeah, we're getting into semantics with whether Jared's a trail runner or a hybrid, and which category Joe fell int.

As for runners sleeping on the trail, of course they could but they haven't yet. At least not on purpose. Or well. There's also no reason a hiker couldn't run parts of the Mid-Atlantic. I just think the best formula is to do both (be a hybrid) and I don't think most of the fastest trail runners are willing to do that. To bring it back to Harvey, it sounds like his worst nights of sleep were on the trail and until runners adapt in that way they're not maximizing their potential.

It'll be fun to see what Karel does. Anybody know when he's starting? Or which way he's going? That's a whole nother issue, but the NOBO vs. SOBO thing is interesting.

There's no reason a runner couldn't have his crew setup on the trail similar to how you guys did. Right? It's just more difficult. If someone chooses to sleep only at roads, my guess is it's because they think they can get the record regardless.

Meh. The Barkley and Hardrock are pretty darn dissimilar in my book. The Barkley is an adventure race with 80% off trail bushwhacking which is why so few elite runners do it. UTMB is the world's most popular trail race and it has more gain than Hardrock. Each to their own definition of course.

According to Joe, he ran the downs, flats and some of the ups. If I remember correctly he finished several 50mi days in 11-12 hours. To me, thats a runner, but we would just be arguing semantics at that point.

But anyway, I don't want to take us too far off course from Harvey's great hike/run. It's all hypothetical. Time will tell. Nice discussion everyone!

[TravisRex]

I really like the use of the word "hiker" as a mindset rather than describing a speed of travel.

If we're frankensteining a best possible FKT attempt it would be someone capable of running the "flats," has considerable knowledge of the trail, comfortable sleeping in the backcountry, and ideally supported with several full-time crew members who allow the FKT'er to travel as light as possible. And extremely durable.

When we were planning for Harvey, I was advocating for spending 1 night out of 5 out on the trail. Karl obviously made it work with his van stops, but Harvey had 2 days in the first couple of weeks where he booked under 40 miles due to how the road crossings played out (like ending with 39.4 miles on Day 11, because it was 17 miles to the next road crossing after VA 16).

Harvey's new goals include looking to get under the time of Andrew Thompson 47d, 13h (which FKT lists as the 5th fastest), Pete Palmer's 48d 20 hr, and just getting in under 50 days. Yesterday was a short day (somewhere around 30 - I haven't done the math yet) after deciding he didn't want to do Killington late in the day. The current plan (well until yesterday) had a new goal target of getting to Abol Bridge Campground Store in 47 days (and however long to do the last 14 miles after that). The short day yesterday will require an updated plan because he'll run into difficulty with road crossings in a few days.

[TravisRex]

It'll be fun to see what Karel does. Anybody know when he's starting? Or which way he's going? That's a whole nother issue, but the NOBO vs. SOBO thing is interesting.

His website says starting July 18th and he appears to be going NOBO based on the information I can find.

[colorado_rob]

John Z could never set an FKT on the AT in any category. He doesn’t like the AT and he doesn’t respect it. It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him. He’s a west coast hiker through and through.

That's a bit snarky, I don't think any of us westerners thing the AT is "beneath us", some of us just don't like hiking/trail running in those types of conditions, like hot and humid. I'm a westerner through-and-through (and an ex "ultra runner") and I thoroughly enjoyed hiking the AT, though my feet never touched the trail in the summer (3 months of spring, 1 month of fall). Why on earth would you say something like this about John Z?

[brew]

Yeah, I just saw July 18th on his FB page. Interesting he's going NOBO. Travis Rex and Bob, did Harvey go NOBO because that's what String Bean did or just because? I've always thought the overall was a lot more important than directional but maybe that's changing? I think most in the AT FKT community would say SOBO's easier.

His website says starting July 18th and he appears to be going NOBO based on the information I can find.

[Violent Green]

If we're frankensteining a best possible FKT attempt it would be someone capable of running the "flats," has considerable knowledge of the trail, comfortable sleeping in the backcountry, and ideally supported with several full-time crew members who allow the FKT'er to travel as light as possible. And extremely durable.

100% - On this, I think we all agree. Best of luck to Harvey and crew on a strong finish!

[TravisRex]

Travis Rex and Bob, did Harvey go NOBO because that's what String Bean did or just because?

With Harvey being a teacher, he knew he needed to make his attempt in the summer, and as close to the end of the school year as possible (I think it ended on a Thursday and his original plan was to start on Tuesday). Going NOBO made sense to try to "follow the cool(er) weather" and avoid needing to run through TN in mid-July. With the weather this year being the way that it is - it's currently warmer in Killington VT than it is in Fontana NC - it probably wouldn't have mattered. From a logistic point of view GA was easier to get to (only a 400 mile drive from Cincinnati vs 1200 to Maine).

Harvey never mentioned to me about wanting to go NOBO because Stringbean did, but knowing what I do about how he thinks, I have to imagine it was in the back of his mind at least somewhat of wanting to beat the record on the "same" course. His friend Pete - who set the fastest time on a cross-country run - made a point of following the same route as the previous record holder (San Fran to NYC) and using as many of the same roads as possible.

[Violent Green]

Maybe it's 50/50 but I still lean toward Hardrock being more like Barkley than a traditional 100 miler. The cutoffs and elevation change, plus the fact that a guy like Jared won it, tells me it leans that way. But yeah, we're getting into semantics with whether Jared's a trail runner or a hybrid, and which category Joe fell int.

As for runners sleeping on the trail, of course they could but they haven't yet. At least not on purpose. Or well. There's also no reason a hiker couldn't run parts of the Mid-Atlantic. I just think the best formula is to do both (be a hybrid) and I don't think most of the fastest trail runners are willing to do that. To bring it back to Harvey, it sounds like his worst nights of sleep were on the trail and until runners adapt in that way they're not maximizing their potential.

It'll be fun to see what Karel does. Anybody know when he's starting? Or which way he's going? That's a whole nother issue, but the NOBO vs. SOBO thing is interesting.

Brew - Speaking of the Barkley, you and Jen should come over to Frozen Head this Spring to watch the spectacle. It's an interesting couple days for sure. Of course, I've not been since it's gotten so popular so they may shut half the park down now.

[TrailRunnerGuy]

Brew, I don't know the reason Harvey chose NOBO.

If we're frankensteining a best possible FKT attempt it would be someone capable of running the "flats," has considerable knowledge of the trail, comfortable sleeping in the backcountry, and ideally supported with several full-time crew members who allow the FKT'er to travel as light as possible. And extremely durable.

I was thinking about this too. Maybe a crew setup like Pete Kostelnick's cross country road run FKT, where he had an RV meet then half way each day for a mid-day meal, and then end of day, with an SUV every 1-3 miles to refuel on the go. Logistically that's so much easier on the road than trail, both for opportunities of where to stop and also the consistency of roads over trail, but there's something to the way Pete did 70-73 miles every single day (except for the 0 day on day 7 for the bad tendinitis) that may have been pretty unique. I don't know if that consistency or predictability is at all possible on the AT, for the crew and runner to look at each day of terrain and elevation and say "XX miles for today" and constantly hit it. Alternatively, maybe 2 crews alternating stops, half days, or days, to keep them fresh and more able to hike in supplies, a tent or hammock for sleeping on trail, etc. There's little doubt in my mind that part of the prep for this should be going out for a multi-day run and sleeping on trail at nights, to get used to being able to fall asleep. Only from what I heard, neither Harvey nor Karl did too well when they had to sleep on trail.

[brew]

yep, I agree

100% - On this, I think we all agree. Best of luck to Harvey and crew on a strong finish!

[brew]

We used Andrew Thompson's daily mileage the same way y'all are using String Bean and Scott's. And the alternating thing is what we did in the 100 Mile Wilderness because a bridge was out (we wouldn't have known if Warren hadn't told us). It wouldn't have made a huge difference, but it's an example of having things dialed in. We missed Jen once in NY and caught her at the next possible road. She anticipated that and kept hiking. And she made a wrong turn in the Whites (which still bugs me a little) because she didn't take the map warren offered and the AMC kind of refuses to give the A.T. special treatment (i.e., signage) over other trails in the Whites. But aside from that the whole thing was pretty seamless, which was how it had to be for us to get it and how it's gonna have to be going forward because the margin for error keeps getting smaller. We also had some ridiculous advantages like Warren knowing a side way into some trails for resupplies (one even with the car) and me finding a similar one near Snickers Gap by eyeballing a map. That's what I've always loved about the AT fkt. It's a giant puzzle or rubics cube. You have to have talent but you have to do it smart, too.

Brew, I don't know the reason Harvey chose NOBO.



I was thinking about this too. Maybe a crew setup like Pete Kostelnick's cross country road run FKT, where he had an RV meet then half way each day for a mid-day meal, and then end of day, with an SUV every 1-3 miles to refuel on the go. Logistically that's so much easier on the road than trail, both for opportunities of where to stop and also the consistency of roads over trail, but there's something to the way Pete did 70-73 miles every single day (except for the 0 day on day 7 for the bad tendinitis) that may have been pretty unique. I don't know if that consistency or predictability is at all possible on the AT, for the crew and runner to look at each day of terrain and elevation and say "XX miles for today" and constantly hit it. Alternatively, maybe 2 crews alternating stops, half days, or days, to keep them fresh and more able to hike in supplies, a tent or hammock for sleeping on trail, etc. There's little doubt in my mind that part of the prep for this should be going out for a multi-day run and sleeping on trail at nights, to get used to being able to fall asleep. Only from what I heard, neither Harvey nor Karl did too well when they had to sleep on trail.

[capehiker]

That's a bit snarky, I don't think any of us westerners thing the AT is "beneath us", some of us just don't like hiking/trail running in those types of conditions, like hot and humid. I'm a westerner through-and-through (and an ex "ultra runner") and I thoroughly enjoyed hiking the AT, though my feet never touched the trail in the summer (3 months of spring, 1 month of fall). Why on earth would you say something like this about John Z?

This isn't Tupac vs. Biggie, here. I was saying he prefers west coast trails. I was not saying all west coast hikers hate the east coast trails. I respect his body of work and have nothing but admiration for his aspirations (although I'd wish he listen to his body more). But, it doesn't take a psychologist to analyze his less than enthusiastic attitude towards the AT. That attitude doesn't set FKT's.

[colorado_rob]

This isn't Tupac vs. Biggie, here. I was saying he prefers west coast trails. I was not saying all west coast hikers hate the east coast trails. I respect his body of work and have nothing but admiration for his aspirations (although I'd wish he listen to his body more). But, it doesn't take a psychologist to analyze his less than enthusiastic attitude towards the AT. That attitude doesn't set FKT's.

Sure, but you said: "It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him" which was snarky, which was my point. "Less than enthusiastic" is a fair statement, but a far cry from stating that the AT he considers to be "a trail that he treats as beneath him."

[JC13]

Sure, but you said: "It’s a trail that he treats as beneath him" which was snarky, which was my point. "Less than enthusiastic" is a fair statement, but a far cry from stating that the AT he considers to be "a trail that he treats as beneath him."

Just throwing in here that from his AT videos, I seem to recall him pretty much saying that he hated the AT and was only continuing to get his triple crown. Take it however you wish, though I was surprised when I saw a video of him and Neemor on the AT earlier this year.

[brew]

I'd love for Jen to try Barkley. But right now we've got a 5 year old and 1 year old so, yeah.

Brew - Speaking of the Barkley, you and Jen should come over to Frozen Head this Spring to watch the spectacle. It's an interesting couple days for sure. Of course, I've not been since it's gotten so popular so they may shut half the park down now.

[colorado_rob]

Just throwing in here that from his AT videos, I seem to recall him pretty much saying that he hated the AT and was only continuing to get his triple crown. Take it however you wish, though I was surprised when I saw a video of him and Neemor on the AT earlier this year.

Sure, he may "hate" the AT, but he probably doesn't consider the AT to "be beneath him", which implies snobbishness, which I say he doesn't have, which was my only point. Lots of westerners "hate" the AT, for reasons I already stated. In fact, none of my local trail running pals wouldn't consider doing anything ultra out east, even when I tell them they don't know what they are missing.

[Violent Green]

Sure, he may "hate" the AT, but he probably doesn't consider the AT to "be beneath him", which implies snobbishness, which I say he doesn't have, which was my only point. Lots of westerners "hate" the AT, for reasons I already stated. In fact, none of my local trail running pals wouldn't consider doing anything ultra out east, even when I tell them they don't know what they are missing.

After running some in CO and CA, I can kinda understand why they feel that way. I love running here in the East, but I could certainly do without the heat and humidity.

I ran 14.5mi in the Big South Fork yesterday. It was 91F in the shade and 94F in the sun. There was much suffering.

[CalebJ]

I'd love for Jen to try Barkley. But right now we've got a 5 year old and 1 year old so, yeah.

I don't know how you found time to record your own album while raising two kids (my 3 year old son takes up nearly all my time it seems like), but I've enjoyed listening to it and reading your wife's book.

[Slo-go'en]

After running some in CO and CA, I can kinda understand why they feel that way. I love running here in the East, but I could certainly do without the heat and humidity.

I ran 14.5mi in the Big South Fork yesterday. It was 91F in the shade and 94F in the sun. There was much suffering.

Between the weather and the rough Treadway, the AT is the ultimate endurance challenge. The fact the trail is so poorly blazed and brushed in NH and Maine to the point you have to wonder if your still on a trail at all adds to the excitement.