New kind of Trail Magic

[Heater]

It's hard to imagine a sillier post. Virtually all long distant trails are on public land, that means they are part of the DEmocratic process -- a part of politics. Political discussion is how trail and other issues are debated, understood, and eventually decided.

The opposite of political discussion is government by fiat, by dictatorship -- or at the very least, decisions from ignorance.

Weary

Well, it is my opinion that your are being "silly" if you think that people should be subjected to your or the other poster's unwanted religious or political debates/rants at the breakfast table.

The "on Pubic land" arguement? That is beyond silliness and just downright stupid, Weary. You are being inconsiderate of others and rude if you continue the discuussion at the breakfast table after being asked to stop.
Just to be clear... we are not talking about campfire or on the trail discussions.

Save it for a more appropriate setting.

[dharmabum86]

OH SLY!!! It's soo good to hear from you! You are my neighbor! I do plan on going to SoRuck. I'm actually going to call NOC and see if they have any openings. I can't wait for it. I didn't get to stay last long last year because we had Matt's daughter that weekend but this year I'm in! So is Matt! Let's do get together and hike some soon!!!

Hey OJ, I agree with you totally.

Are you coming to the Southern Ruck this year? We're almost neghbors now, we'll have to get together.

[Sly]

OH SLY!!! It's soo good to hear from you! You are my neighbor! I do plan on going to SoRuck. I'm actually going to call NOC and see if they have any openings. I can't wait for it. I didn't get to stay last long last year because we had Matt's daughter that weekend but this year I'm in! So is Matt! Let's do get together and hike some soon!!!

Cool, stay in touch! Hey there are lots of job opportunities at the NOC. I think it would be a great place to work.

http://www.noc.com/jobs.html

[Heater]

I believe their self-righteousness and pride gets in the way and makes their ministry far less effective than the Master intended. YMMV

Just the the word, the idea, that people that do not agree with their beliefs need to be saved, is a pretty good indicator of their real understanding of what it is all about and how they should go about speading their message.

[Skyline]

And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space.

I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?

I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.

Some religions -- possibly to self-perpetuate -- look upon it as their DUTY to prosyletize. The "clergy" tell their flocks to go out and convert. The worst of them try to poison our laws and political parties.

[spandau]

Thanks to everyone for the civil responses to my question.

I didn't grow up with this sort of thing, so it just seems like an odd thing to do, tantamount to walking up to someone on the street and saying "Can I tell you all about how much I love spaghetti?" Much too familiar for me; YMMV.

I have very little experience with proselytizers, other than a few door-knockers, and a polite sign seems to keep them away. I've never encountered one while hiking.

[Webs]

After hearing his life story, I kindly asked him at what age did he say he was born again. He stated he was 48 years old. It was then, I was able to reassure him that he did not get saved until the time was right. If he firmly believed that born again Cristians were doing Gods work, then only Gods would determine when someone was ready. I said to him with a smile that God had not determined that it was my time to be saved yet. He squirmed a little and was satisfied that he would not yet be able to save me.

I share this with my friends because, I will never know when my time may come. If I am not ready, no human power will be able to save my ass. On the other hand, if I rely soley on another human to determine whether I am ready or not, I am in big trouble.

But we also can't forget that with free will comes the resonsibility to act; IOW, God will provide us the opportunity to accept Him at some point (or many times) in our lives, but we are the ones who must ultimately take the action of believing Him or not. This is what free will entails: choice.

But yeah, I agree that he can't automatically expect you to "be ready" at the moment he speaks with you. I read that it takes 7 times of someone hearing the Gospel for them to, I guess as you say, "be ready." But of course, this is just a statistic...

[MOWGLI]

I read that it takes 7 times of someone hearing the Gospel for them to, I guess as you say, "be ready."

Ah! The "blessed repetition." Or that's what they used to say in AA - back when I was regular member of the club. Of course, that program is not religious. That's probably why it worked for me.

[The Weasel]

And I hope that America never gets so darned p.c. that we are forced to put up with the sales pitches of every sort of religious adherent every time we venture into a public space.

I honestly do not understand the compulsive need to discuss one's religion with a total stranger. What is the motivation? Why is this of such pressing importance to these people?

I admit that I find it coercive and even rude, which is why I am trying to understand the motivation behind it.

Gosh, Spandy!

I don't think I've ever seen such a breathtaking lack of understanding - much less tolerance - of the Constitution, the AT, and religion every wrapped into one post, at least on this forum. Where to start?

Well, let's start with "America getting PC" about this sort of thing. You see, it all started in 1789, when most states refused to ratify the proposed Constitution since it didn't have a Bill of Rights. So they wrote one...and the First Amendment has this horrible "PC" thingy in it called, "free exercise of religion." So yeah, Tom and George and Ben and all those other dumbass liberals were PC. They said, "People can exercise their religion, including preaching it and seeking members, in public places." There are som other nasty "PC" thingys in the Bill of Rights, too, but we'll deal with those another day.

And the AT - hate to break your heart here! - isn't a private club composed of members of the ATC, or WhiteBlaze or - gasp! - even Trail Place that we can kick those stupid religious types out of. The ATG is a composite of public lands, including National Parks and Forests, State Parks and Forests, and other public lands, and even, where private owners have granted easements, those are generally in favor of the National Park Service or other public bodies. So dang! The AT is public property for all Americans, not just those who are intolerant. While some limits can be places by government on some First Amendment activity, there aren't a lot, and that's a good thing. We call that "democracy."

And what is "their motivation" that you can't understand? It's not very complex, and it's not a lot different from the motivation of people here to "share the great news" about the AT and who want to convince others about the ways to hike. (Yeah, all of you who know my dog rants - and have seen the other side, too - know what real "religious" arguments can be like! Remember, as the dyslexic atheist thruhiker once said, "There is no Dog!!!) So think about it, guy. They are doing something that is fairly common among humans: Sharing good news. Except evangelical Christians capitalize the "G" and "N" in "good news." They think it is. Seems harmless to me. Maybe they're right. I'll know in a few years. I'll try to drop you a note. The flames should make it bright enough to read.

And as for your offense at all this, in several dozen years of being around evangelicals (including most of one year on the AT), I haven't found any who were "offensive" or "rude" by any honest objective standard. Most evangelicals wait for someone to approach them ("What is that fish symbol on your pack for?") or, if they start the conversation, politely stop when the other person registers a request that they do so. I think I was forced to endure such hardships oh, twice or so between Springer and Virginia. (Thanks, Gary. Great pancakes!)

So I'm sorry, Spandau, but you need to recharge your tolerance battery a little. America - the United States, that is - is what some of us still hope will always be: "A free country."

The Weasel

[Webs]

Or that's what they used to say in AA - back when I was regular member of the club. Of course, that program is not religious. That's probably why it worked for me.

Congrats on your successful completion!

[MOWGLI]

Congrats on your successful completion!

Well, you never actually graduate once you're a member of the club. That's why it's called an ism and not a wasm.

[Webs]

Well, you never actually graduate once you're a member of the club. That's why it's called an ism and not a wasm.

HAHA! I'll have to write that one down

[Footslogger]

Well, you never actually graduate once you're a member of the club. That's why it's called an ism and not a wasm.

============================

Kinda like HOTEL CALIFORNIA ??

'Slogger

[The Weasel]

Ah! The "blessed repetition." Or that's what they used to say in AA - back when I was regular member of the club. Of course, that program is not religious. That's probably why it worked for me.

Mowgli - AA may not be "sectarian" (i.e. identifiable as belonging to a particuar denomination) but it sure is religious. "God" and "Him" are specific parts of at least 5 of the "Twelve Steps" in the Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

I admire you that it's working for you today!

The Weasel

[RockyTrail]

The AT is public property for all Americans, not just those who are intolerant.
The Weasel

Great post, Weasel.
Maybe lawyers aren't so bad after all

[Footslogger]

[quote=The Weasel;271890] but it sure is religious.
======================================

Might be symantics ...but during the time I spent there I always thought of if as being more SPIRITUAL than religious.

'Slogger

[Boat Drinks]

Who's "truth" is truthier?? The Christians? The Muslims? Judaism? Janism? Buddism? Hinduism? Shinto? Zorostrianism? Rastafarian? Mormonism? Christian Scientists? Paganism?

You forgot Hefnerism, those that believe Hugh Hefner is God....

[MOWGLI]

Mowgli - AA may not be "sectarian" (i.e. identifiable as belonging to a particuar denomination) but it sure is religious. "God" and "Him" are specific parts of at least 5 of the "Twelve Steps" in the Book.

The Weasel

Well, we could talk about this one for weeks. That is often the impression of folks who haven't attended meetings, and the law has taken that view (I know you're a lawyer) in some high profile cases.

All AA requires is a belief in a power greater than yourself. Not a belief in any deity. God is often used as an acronym (ex: Group Of Drunks).

The claim that AA is religious is most often used by folks to rationalize not attending, and therefore continuing to drink. I know, because it was my excuse not to go to meetings for several years.


Send me a PM if you want to continue this discussion offline.

[Frolicking Dinosaurs]

Mowgli - AA may not be "sectarian" (i.e. identifiable as belonging to a particuar denomination) but it sure is religious. "God" and "Him" are specific parts of at least 5 of the "Twelve Steps" in the Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

I admire you that it's working for you today!

The Weasel

The fellows that started AA did so in the US in the late 1930's. The phrase" God, as we understood Him" was scandalous enough at the time. Today, the term 'Higher Power' is commonly used and I've seen many, many things other than the Judeo-Christian God used as higher powers.

Probably my favorite was the higher power of an old street drunk who had drank so long he was permanently mentally impaired. He attended AA meetings in a clubhouse in an old building where an old radiator hung near the ceiling as a heat source. He was struggling with the concept of a higher power until one day he looked up at the radiator and announced it was his higher power because it was higher than him and kept him warm. When that old building was torn down to make way for a new road, three AA members (one an Episcopal priest, one a Baptist deacon and the other an agnostic) carefully removed the radiator and mounted it on the ceiling of the new clubhouse location (which had central air and heat) so that 'wino Joe' would have his higher power.

That is an example of true love and religious tolerance.

[Lone Wolf]

I hang out with GOD often. Especially at Gatherings, Trail Days and Rucks.