Guns On The Trail

**take-a-knee** · 05-10-2009, 12:48

Originally Posted by Homer&Marje

The first part of your on topic statement is ridiculously irresponsibly written. There are at least a million reasons why millions of people should never own, see, or have a gun in there possession.

Secondly, what would you have done to a bunch of punk kids in a pickup truck with a gun that you could not have accomplished with a knife or bare handed? You that scared of kids?

Alternate reality/Marxichusetts huh? I'll bet you work for the government.

**Homer&Marje** · 05-10-2009, 12:50

Originally Posted by take-a-knee

Alternate reality/Marxichusetts huh? I'll bet you work for the government.

Far far from it. Marxist? No. Realist. Yes. As for my reality. It's my choice.

**le loupe** · 05-10-2009, 15:03

[quote=Homer&Marje;835671]

Originally Posted by le loupe

And those statistics are valid how?

That is a statistic provided by the National Crime Victimization Survey, 2000, Bureau of Justice Statistics, BATF estimates on handgun supply.

I didn't just pull them out of the sand.

**le loupe** · 05-10-2009, 15:13

[quote=Homer&Marje;835671]

Originally Posted by le loupe

How many of those same crimes could be prevented with simple self defense tactics and running away?

I don't understand why that matters- especially given the effectiveness and relative safety in which guns are used this way.

Try this one on-

About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000. (according to
Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall Issue": The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994.

You and I have gone round this topic on other threads, but I don't think I've ever heard you say why you feel the way you do about guns.

**Homer&Marje** · 05-10-2009, 17:41

[quote=le loupe;835747]

Originally Posted by Homer&Marje

I don't understand why that matters- especially given the effectiveness and relative safety in which guns are used this way.

Try this one on-

About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000. (according to
Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall Issue": The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994.

You and I have gone round this topic on other threads, but I don't think I've ever heard you say why you feel the way you do about guns.

Innocence is decided by the courts and isn't always what happened. One child dies every other day due to a misfired gun kept in the home. That statistic is a fact. But I'm sure your side of the argument won't agree that it's valid.

It's like banging your head against a wall with these type of arguments. End up with a headache and you got no where.

**Alaskanhkr23** · 05-10-2009, 17:46

i think if u have a small caliber handgun,and its concealed safely,and you know how to use it properly,you have the right to have it, whats the problem ,just dnt be shooting it for no reason or pulling it out over a verbal argument

**man2th** · 05-10-2009, 17:48

funny, in my 15 yrs as a paramedic the ONLY > 18 y/o shootings i have been around have been gang related and suicides.....NOT these " accidents" you speak of. when you want facts, talk to the people that are actually witness the events.

**Homer&Marje** · 05-10-2009, 17:48

[quote=le loupe;835660]

Originally Posted by Homer&Marje

The first part of your on topic statement is ridiculously irresponsibly written. There are at least a million reasons why millions of people should never own, see, or have a gun in there possession.
quote]

Morally irresponsible to defend oneself? Regardless of whether it is with you hands, a knife or a gun, there is no immorality is that position.

Further no responsible gun owner advocate unfettered access to guns. It makes sense to keep guns from violent offenders and the mentally unstable.

Until you fall into one of those categories there are 2.5 million annual reasons why responsible, law abiding people should have access to guns. Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired

[quote=le loupe;835747]

Originally Posted by Homer&Marje

I don't understand why that matters- especially given the effectiveness and relative safety in which guns are used this way.

Try this one on-

About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000. (according to
Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall Issue": The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994.

You and I have gone round this topic on other threads, but I don't think I've ever heard you say why you feel the way you do about guns.

So by these statistics...if I've done my math right. Which I won't guarantee but please check it.

2.5 million crimes in which a hand gun could prevent the situation.
Divided by the 1% of the time in which a gun is fired = 25,000 times a gun was fired in crime prevention (by citizens, by your count)
Divided by the 2% of shootings by a citizen that kill an innocent person is 500 innocent people shot each year due to citizen crime prevention.
25,000, the amount of times the gun was fired...divided by 500 innocent lives leads us to a 1 in 52 chance of being an innocent person shot in which a gun was involved by a citizen in crime prevention.

**Alaskanhkr23** · 05-10-2009, 17:54

gang shooting only happen most of the time in gang area's go to alaska where shootings happen all the time,Ct has shootings alot also in inner city dwellings,you could fall and the pin can go off and shoot ur own foot ,i mean there's no telling what can happen with guns, i own, a S&W 460,1942 Lee enfield,a 30-06,and a twelve gauge,i've had a miss fire in both 30-06 and lee enfield and not due to cleaning problems just happens sometimes

**Alaskanhkr23** · 05-10-2009, 17:56

thats my point or opinion this conversation can turn ugly at any point and im sure it has,and i wont be a part of it

**le loupe** · 05-10-2009, 18:03

[quote=Homer&Marje;835809]

Originally Posted by le loupe

Innocence is decided by the courts and isn't always what happened. One child dies every other day due to a misfired gun kept in the home. That statistic is a fact. But I'm sure your side of the argument won't agree that it's valid.

It's like banging your head against a wall with these type of arguments. End up with a headache and you got no where.

I'm not arguing.

I agree with your statistic and its always a terrible thing when a child's (or any innocent's) life is cut short.

But put it in perspective-

13 teenagers die everyday behind the wheel of there own auto
4 children die everyday as a result of abuse or neglect
13 women or children die everyday at the hand of a convicted felon in the supposed supervision of a government program

2% of all unintentional death in children are the result of guns according to the Natl Safety Council and the Centers for Disease Control.

Contrast 190 accidental child deaths with 1100 prevented murders and 550 rapes. Remove the emotion of it being a child and a life is a life, child or adult.

**le loupe** · 05-10-2009, 18:09

[quote=Homer&Marje;835818][quote=le loupe;835660]

Originally Posted by le loupe

So by these statistics...if I've done my math right. Which I won't guarantee but please check it.

2.5 million crimes in which a hand gun could prevent the situation.
Divided by the 1% of the time in which a gun is fired = 25,000 times a gun was fired in crime prevention (by citizens, by your count)
Divided by the 2% of shootings by a citizen that kill an innocent person is 500 innocent people shot each year due to citizen crime prevention.
25,000, the amount of times the gun was fired...divided by 500 innocent lives leads us to a 1 in 52 chance of being an innocent person shot in which a gun was involved by a citizen in crime prevention.

Leave the math and studies to others.

just because a gun in fired doesnt mean a person is killed. the study only found that in cases where a person was killed, 2% of the time that person was innocent.

the statistic said 1:26000 is the chance of an innocent person being killed.

Firearm misuse causes only a small number of accidental deaths in the U.S. Forexample, compared to accidental death from firearms, you are:

• Twice as likely to suffocate on a swallowed object
• Seven times more likely to be poisoned
• 10 times more likely to die falling

• And 31 times more likely to die in an automobile accident

**KMACK** · 05-10-2009, 18:15

All these stats are great but they dont reflect on the original question. If there are no stats for guns/shooting on the AT then that answers it for me. NO guns are not needed on the AT........but if one is a law abiding/safe/legally licensed gun owner that wants to carry then go for it.

**Homer&Marje** · 05-10-2009, 18:18

[quote=le loupe;835831][quote=Homer&Marje;835818]

Originally Posted by le loupe

Leave the math and studies to others.

just because a gun in fired doesnt mean a person is killed. the study only found that in cases where a person was killed, 2% of the time that person was innocent.

the statistic said 1:26000 is the chance of an innocent person being killed.

Firearm misuse causes only a small number of accidental deaths in the U.S. Forexample, compared to accidental death from firearms, you are:

• Twice as likely to suffocate on a swallowed object
• Seven times more likely to be poisoned
• 10 times more likely to die falling

• And 31 times more likely to die in an automobile accident

Was your numbers I used to do the math. You didn't prove me wrong in any sense. if 1 in 26000 is the chance of an innocent person being killed then 1 in 52 is the chance an innocent person has when that situation comes up.

I used your numbers. Please..... add it up differently for me because those numbers scare me more than anything on the trail.

**Alaskanhkr23** · 05-10-2009, 18:20

thats what i said Kmack,seriously the only reason for a gun is safety righ? from what i've read is that the AT is one of the safest places in the US.yeah some assualts and murders have happened but not many.The only reason i would bring a gun on a trail is if its in grizzly country

**man2th** · 05-10-2009, 18:58

hey alaskanhkr23, not sure about that model,(the 460) but modern s&w"as do most hand guns have a firing pin block safety that is engaged untill the hammer is completely back,,,in single or double action mode, to prevent drop discharges

**le loupe** · 05-10-2009, 19:06

[quote=Homer&Marje;835838][quote=le loupe;835831]

Originally Posted by Homer&Marje

Was your numbers I used to do the math. You didn't prove me wrong in any sense. if 1 in 26000 is the chance of an innocent person being killed then 1 in 52 is the chance an innocent person has when that situation comes up.

I used your numbers. Please..... add it up differently for me because those numbers scare me more than anything on the trail.

Your version of the stats breaks down when you assume that every time a weapon is fired a "shooting" is the result. The statistics don't speak to how many people are shot in the course of deterring violent crime. You can be sure its much lower than 2.5 mill x 1%. BTW 1:52 is still more or less 2%- you didnt give me anything new regardless of your advanced math.

As I stated previously- there is room on the trail for both view points. Go back to post #187

**KMACK** · 05-10-2009, 19:10

man2th, I believe you are correct. Also most modern semi auto have internal firing pin disconnecters that only re-engage as the trigger is being pulled...ie they will NOT go off from bouncing around in a pack.

**Homer&Marje** · 05-10-2009, 19:34

[quote=le loupe;835865][quote=Homer&Marje;835838]

Originally Posted by le loupe

Your version of the stats breaks down when you assume that every time a weapon is fired a "shooting" is the result. The statistics don't speak to how many people are shot in the course of deterring violent crime. You can be sure its much lower than 2.5 mill x 1%. BTW 1:52 is still more or less 2%- you didnt give me anything new regardless of your advanced math.

As I stated previously- there is room on the trail for both view points. Go back to post #187

Damn new math. Listening to a Cosby stand up skit or sumtin?

No **** it's nothing new. The argument is a two sided and for the most part pig headed view of a problem that probably won't be fixed anytime soon. Healthcare anyone? Oh wait. This is WB.

**Skidsteer** · 05-10-2009, 19:44

[quote=Homer&Marje;835887][quote=le loupe;835865]

Originally Posted by Homer&Marje

Damn new math. Listening to a Cosby stand up skit or sumtin?

No **** it's nothing new. The argument is a two sided and for the most part pig headed view of a problem that probably won't be fixed anytime soon. Healthcare anyone? Oh wait. This is WB.

It doesn't need fixed.

Folks aren't getting shot on the trail by people licensed to carry firearms.

You may not like that but tough. Mind your own damn business.

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