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  1. #21
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    RenoRoamer is dangerously erroneous. I have been a professional and have lived outdoors for 7 years straight. From east to west. I don't build bags but I've spent thousands of nights in them. Down, 3d, lamilite, wiggies, TNF, Mountain Hardwear, Marmot, all of them. I get all kinds of bags, and in short, I really think this dude hasn't got a clue.

    I own several wiggies bags and several bags with Polarguard 3d. I actually worked for TNF and bought a Dark Star -40 degree bag that isn't good enough now 5 years later to be used for cat litter. A lamilite insulated bag is sure as HELL not the same as Polarguard Delta, not even close!!!!!!!

    they are not the same in any way, not in the least, not by a mile, not by a long shot. they are more different then i am from mother teresa.

    the wiggies bags last. polarguard delta bags do not.

    You want to talk you can e-mail me all you want. I know what bags I like right now. There are some new fibers coming out, and it's a shame that this dude is out here screwing up the web with silly info. Go out in a 10 year old Wiggies and a 10 year old TNF bag that is Polarguard. Get an old tundra from TNF and an old "ultima thule" from Wiggies (about the same price, fyi, both rated for -20 below), you can take the TNF, for me, I know if the temp gets below freezing that my butt is going to be warm in the wiggies. It's stitched right to the bag by the way. What are you jokers talking about, it's like this whole thread is written by people that never used their bags before. A wiggies is the same as any other bag, it's just beefier and it doesn't have quilts, shingles, whatever you want to call them. It's only sewn on the edges.

    Like I said, pm or e-mail me if you want to talk more. That last word on this is that Polarguard Delta is a sorry excuse for insulation when it comes to year after year compacted daily use and that's a damn fact. If anyone here has used their delta insulated bag like I have mine (I own 3 or 4 still), you know what I'm talking about. After a few years they are crap. Bad for you, bad for me, bad for the environment. BAd period.

    My wiggies bags are a whole different story, they should not be mentioned in the same breath. Oh BTW, in Alaska, where it is actually cold all the time and wet, there is one bag that is bought more than any other;;;;;wiggies. I'm not saying their the best, I'm saying that they are different. That's a fact.

  2. #22
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    climashield and lamilite are the same thing.

    down is still the warmest per weight, no doubt about it.

    i'm not into holding your hands here, but think about it for yourself if a down bag suits you. so it you are backpacking in winter in the olympics, maybe it's not the best idea.

    polarguard delta, is, was, and will eventually be uncovered as the biggest moneymaking hoax of the outdoor industry, and mother nature, should she take human form, would wreak severe revenge on all the companies who sold millions of bags in the early 2000's, that are not useless or in landfills, OR! worse, have killed people for being rated to -20 and having someone freeze to death at 10 degrees above (think i'm lying i've been there my friends).

    wiggies bags are old school, and if you talk to people that own them you'll know what to think after that. REI is about making money these days and wouldn't be willing to sell you a wiggies bags because they don't sparkle as nice as TNF, and then the customer won't be back next year to buy a new bag.

    wiggies, climashield, and down, that's what I'll use now until I hear something different. If it's going to be wet, I don't take down. I just don't. Down isn't warm underneath synthetic, it's too flat. The only dang reason why down is warm is because of the loft. You lose the loft you lose the heat. Please people, if you care for your survival, do NOT listen to this thread. Get some better information, and don't you dare get yourself out there and not know what to do about it. You newcomers, do more research, and get CREDIBLE answers. You want to talk to these companies, you do what I did, you call them, you use their stuff, you take a shower in your bag and then sleep on the lawn, you find out. Do not put yourself in danger with this Bull crap information.

    again, i have worked for a lot of these companies, and i am a pro. get good gear, but this thread is stupid.
    Last edited by Alligator; 12-05-2008 at 15:52. Reason: TOS #2

  3. #23
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    okay so i'm now replying to myself. first off i think i might have said the wrong thing earlier, I didn't realize if it sounded harsh.

    I have some friends at Wiggies and got a call back today from Wiggy himself (Jerry). He explained some interesting things about sleeping bags, and I'll tell them to you as I was told.

    First, he explained that for a long time he had been in the insulation industry and when one company went out of business making an insulation another appeared calling themselves western nonwovens. he explained that basically all synthetic sleeping bags got their insulation from the same EXACT place. He said that the difference between his bags and a "polarguard" bag (made from the same fibers) was that he used one that was thicker, heavier, and one that was more durable. He and I agreed that you can see the difference after some years of wear, a wiggies bag will hold up, while a polarguard Delta bag will be worthless. He explained that his material "lamilite" IS climashield. I didn't get it out of him exactly what strain of climashield his bags are made from, but I'm guessing it's climashield combat. I don't know why I'm guessing that but I'm going to go ahead and post that.

    Wiggy is a cool dude, and his bags rock. Conversely, I have had a lot of heartache over sleeping bags failing, and now that polarguard is out of the picture you see climashield coming in. Well, according to the man who would know, it's just a change in the name. Primaloft, I don't know. that's another company, but climashield is polarguard, is lamilite. However, if you look at lamilite there is a MAJOR difference in comparison, and that is the choice that wiggy used in selecting the weight of his material. A "heavier" material that he believes is the one that is made for sleeping bags, and at this point you guys, it's hard to argue with him on that. The thing is that a lamilite bag rated for 20 degrees will probably really go down that low, and it will do it for years. Now a 20 degree climashield/polarguard delta bag will maybe do the same thing, and it will have higher loft than a wiggies I think from out of the store. My point is, and it is one I have proven to myself through pretty extensive use of these bags, is that within a short amount of time, the polarguard delta bag, which is now the climashield bag, will lose that loft as the fibers break down. Using the weight and heft of material that wiggies uses means that won't happen nearly as much. And as I have found, a one year old polarguard delta bag, which i am stating unless proven wrong is the same thing as climashield; will not keep you warm like a wiggies will under the same conditions. And further, what I'm saying is that it not only will not keep you as warm as a wiggies after some use, I'm saying that the only reason for this kind of a bag is to sell it in a competitive marketplace that cannot compare the products after some use. I USE my bags so I've seen what happens to delta. It gets smashed, flat out, no pun intended. Wiggies lamilite DOES NOT. So I think there is something to this. I think also that you can spout warmth to weight ratio's all you want, but what is happening here you guys, is that a higher loft bag is warmer, because it traps the air. Now, obviously when you have a higher loft down bag it is warmer, and when you have a thinner, lighter synthetic you will have higher loft, but then after use it breaks down, it just does. I'm saying that is just the way it is.

    When wiggy got off the phone with me, and I had told him the outfitter I worked for for several years and the TNF store I worked for etc, etc, and that I had seen a ton of his bags do hard labor for a long time and stand up well. the last thing he said was "if it's 20 degrees outside and a wiggies bag keeps you warm is it still heavier?". this simple question is the foundation of my inquiry into synthetic bags. A 20 degree bag that weighs 4 lbs, and a 30 degree wiggies bag that weighs 4lbs. the wiggies bag is heavier, but if it keeps you warm, it is not heavier at all. In fact, the reality sets in,....hey....wait a minute, these are just sleeping bags made out of poly yarn, that's it.

  4. #24

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    Wiggy's likely uses Climashield Combat because it is US made, therefore it complies with the Berry Ammendment, which specifies most products made for troops must have %100 US origins under most circumstances. The Army went with those junk ECWS bags, Special ops units use their own money to buy Wiggy's bags, they are far superior.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukebaugh View Post
    Wiggy is a cool dude
    Well, you may be right about insulation, but you're dead wrong in the above... makes me question everything you've written.

  6. #26

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    Luke,

    I go on many forums and try to find what Climashield Wiggys use ?
    Since there are plenty, it is a bit confusing,

    Is this COMBAT / XP / HL / the newest APEX / NEO / GREEN (some claim GREEN can be weaker since inception of non virgin fiber ....)

    rgds

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by BradMT View Post
    Well, you may be right about insulation, but you're dead wrong in the above... makes me question everything you've written.
    Ya have to "understand" Jerry. He just tells it as he sees it.... LOL
    I'll second on the bag quality.I'll never use anything else.
    Gotta give the ole boy a call and see if my pack is ready to ship !

  8. #28

  9. #29
    AT NOBO2010 / SOBO2011 Maddog's Avatar
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    wow!!! what??? this is more anal than porn!!!
    "You do more hiking with your head than your feet!" Emma "Grandma" Gatewood...HYOY!!!
    http://www.hammockforums.net/?

  10. #30

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    well,

    my purpose is to draw a guide line, a chart showing all the differences linked in terms of thicknesses (denier) and linked to the core (hollow void or solid), and the intra diameter (microns)
    For instance Thinsulate has 1.4 denier (weight) (weighs 1.4 gram for 9000 meter) while being 15 microns thick but is flat to begin with.
    The Lamilite is 5.5 denier but can't get the diameter and is warmer than PG 3D, 3.3 denier , Climashield Neo 2 denier (http://www2.thenorthface.com/na/tech...gies-EQ65.html) and PG Delta about 2 denier.
    It seems that the lighter, the finer, the weaker.....
    therefore my initial question...

  11. #31

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    I've had a few bags in my life. Most of the synthetic bags didn't last very long - they would lose their loft and I would sleep colder in them as the loft decreased. The one exception was a Trailwise synthetic bag back in the 1970's. Something about the old insulation of that time and bag?

    I sleep under a down comforter about 180 nights per year. Much of the time, I didn't bother with a sheet. Just this fall, I began sleeping in a new down comforter because after 3 years with the older one, I was tired of the color.

    I washed the old down comforter one time in those 3 years, and it came out clean with the loft nicely restored (just like others claim happens with careful laundering of down quilts and bags.). I paid $40 for it on seasonal closeout - suspect it had nearly a $200 price tag. It was a Department Store house brand, not a snooty famous name.

    It rains extremely rarely in my bedroom, so I can't tell you how warm the comforter is when wet. The best route is to keep it dry, and then it will be fine.

    I fell for the "Thermalite" claims of materials engineering combining several synthetic fibers of different sizes and geometries to give loft and warmth at low weight. But I couldn't ever get 2 years of service out of them, at about 30 nights per season. Washing them appeared to be hard on them.

    The discussion seems to lead in the direction that ultrafine synthetic fibers provide a good initial loft, but not much life for that loft.

    The correlate is that coarser synthetic fibers, larger diameter fiber to be more accurate, is capable of maintaining whatever loft it has for far longer, and to hold up to lots of laundering without loss of loft.

    Some associate the fine fibers with "new technology" and the thicker fibers with "old technology". Others don't.

    The manufacturers of insulation and sleeping bags have a lot of "proprietary information" which we mere mortal customers aren't allowed to know. This complicates the situation.

    Years ago, I was working in a materials industry where there was scads of "Proprietary Information". One of the old hands told me that that was just a way to say "I'm not going to tell you". I caught on. I too used "Proprietary Information" as an excuse to not tell people anything, and never got a complaint.

    The net result is that many of these "discussions" are nice but they aren't going to be very convincing, but they are a good way to get excited and speak strongly about what you believe, or believe you know.

    I recently opened a new lightweight synthetic pillow that had great volumetric compressibility and was pleased with what I saw. Looked like somebody had tried to engineer fibers into something that resembles down clusters. Have no idea how long this fiber configuration will keep it's properties, but it will be fun to watch it. Maybe after I finish the project (sorry, its proprietary), I will put some in a vest or a hood and try it out, carefully measuring loft as built and loft loss with time.

    See how slick that "proprietary" stuff works.

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