Potassium Permanganate + Glycerin = Fire

[take-a-knee]

An explosion is just a very fast (often in a confined space) burn. Types of explosives are categorized by the speed of their burn. If you put an incendiary (your word) into an enclosed space, you get an explosion. In any case, I'd say the number of hikers making and using thermite to light their camp fires and stoves compared to the number using Bic lighters is, uh, how you say, insignificant, if not nonexistant.

Also, Mister Knee, the term of art is "fougasse." The type of reaction, as you described it, is of a fuel-air explosion -- it's also a Vietnam War-era term for a type of explosive anti-personnel expedient using diesel and an explosive device to spread and ignite that fuel -- descriptions can be found in mil. field manuals of that time period. Another definition of the word is for a type of French bread, but you likely know that already.

Also, someone would have to check on this, but I'm pretty sure mixing up thermite reactions on federal land is ILLEGAL, especially in the context of hiking and camping. Telling someone it's OK to do this is not a good idea, not merely from a law enforcement perspective, but also from the fact that a person could get badly injured/burned or even killed doing it.

Calling someone clueless for suggesting that a Bic lighter is good for use on the Appalachian Trail transcends stupid and enters the realm of mental defect.

Just 'cause you seen it on the teevee doesn't mean it's good to do yourself. Unless you want to go for a Darwin Award. In that case, never mind the boring little Bic.

Okay Darwin, I'm no english or physics major, but I am retired Special Forces, and I've blown up more stuff than you could probably imagine, so you are obviously FOS on that point. I'm also not a lawyer but I'm sure you are FOS about the legality of using two chemicals to start a campfire. Also, if you think it is smart to rely on a 99cent cig lighter to produce a potentially life-saving fire then you are obviously the one who's stuck on stupid. The SAS has taught this technique for decades and it is also taught at Army SERE, they don't teach "bic lighter". So, I guess the whole spec ops community is a bunch "mental defectives". You might oughta shut your ignorant pie-whole before you look even dumber.

[rafe]

You might oughta shut your ignorant pie-whole before you look even dumber.

Earth to TAK: "You might oughta" spell-check your insults, particularly when commenting on your opponent's intelligence.

[ChinMusic]

I would NEVER argue with a Special Forces guy regarding pie-hole......

[take-a-knee]

Earth to TAK: "You might oughta" spell-check your insults, particularly when commenting on your opponent's intelligence.

You think I oughta do that terrapin? So's I could impress you no doubt? Impressing folks has never been on my to-do list. I was, however, quite impressed with your photographic abilities.

[rafe]

I was, however, quite impressed with your photographic abilities.

Just a different kind of shooting is all.

[4eyedbuzzard]

You can buy potassium permanganate at photo suppliers or where water treatment supplies are sold - in fairly large quantities. Glycerine can be purchased almost anywhere, and sucrose or other sugars will also work to create the reaction. Given its common use as an oxidizer in many areas, and the quantities purchased for survival kits, I doubt anyone will see helicopters flying around their house after buying it.

I think waterproof matches, some vaselined cotton balls, and a couple of esbits are an easier survival backup for all those survival situations encountered in the AT wilderness.

[Wise Old Owl]

Awful the amount of bickering on this thread when people are looking for help. As for the Bic lighter it is a "cheap safe and sage idea" dunk it in a glass of water and it is suddenly a useless item. Put it in a watertight container or purchase a water tight, wind proof one - all the better. Hey if you want to go purchase chemicals to make you hike better that's fine. Thousands of lights available each way, far more than matches. Survival isn't hiking the AT. Survival skills are in the head, its about making the best in spite of the worst moment in you life. It's about taking advantage of what is at hand. Not about the legality of chemical reactions. If you start a fire that gets out of control then that is a different matter. I respect all your opinions - until you write something inappropriate. How about we all step up after this and clean it up.

[Bob S]

A bic lighter with a backup lighter and you are OK. I do also carry a magnesium stick and some homemade waterproof matches.

As far as a lighter getting wet, blow on it for a min and it will spark again. I’ve had to do this numerous times and it worked great.

I’m not a chemical expert or a Military trained survival expert, so I won’t say how well it works to mix chemicals. But I am a person that doesn’t want to blow myself up or get scared for life playing junior chemical survivalist.


By the way, you can claim you are anything on the net and we have no way to know if it’s true or BS. Not to offend any chemical or survival experts here, but don’t expect me to take your advice on playing with dangerous chemicals when I have no real idea who you are.

[WalkinHome]

Awful the amount of bickering on this thread when people are looking for help. As for the Bic lighter it is a "cheap safe and sage idea" dunk it in a glass of water and it is suddenly a useless item. Put it in a watertight container or purchase a water tight, wind proof one - all the better. Hey if you want to go purchase chemicals to make you hike better that's fine. Thousands of lights available each way, far more than matches. Survival isn't hiking the AT. Survival skills are in the head, its about making the best in spite of the worst moment in you life. It's about taking advantage of what is at hand. Not about the legality of chemical reactions. If you start a fire that gets out of control then that is a different matter. I respect all your opinions - until you write something inappropriate. How about we all step up after this and clean it up.

I have to respectfully disagree with this characterization of this thread. In fact I think it is a more moderate thread than most on White Blaze LOL. A question was asked supposedly to explore the pros and cons of using a quite dangerous (and illegal) method of fire starting. Folks chimed in that have more experience (and willing to pass along that knowledge) with this and posted as such. The goal is/was not to slam the individual but to enlighten him/her to protect him/her and any hikers around when this method might be used. That, I think, is the greater good here. If there is a credibility issue (don't know you so I don't believe you) then by all means verify by independent sources. I have to wonder that if you are not going to believe what is passed along on this site what you are asking questions for? My $.02 put forward in a calm, non confrontational want to help tone LOL. Be safe

[4eyedbuzzard]

A question was asked supposedly to explore the pros and cons of using a quite dangerous (and illegal) method of fire starting.

I don't think it's the best backup by any means, but seriously, under what statute is it "illegal"?

[WalkinHome]

I don't think it's the best backup by any means, but seriously, under what statute is it "illegal"?

If you are storing two chemicals and then combine them to create a binary explosive then you are required to get an explosive's mixing permit/license. If you are storing or carrying around a pre-mixed explosive mixture you would need to be licensed to transport and implement the explosive. I would not be surprised to see that the current view/laws on these types of material has been tightened up considerably but that is conjecture on my part. I cannot quote the exact law (should be easy enough to Google) but I have a close relative that works in this field under contract to the guvmnt' and he has, on occasion been cited for variations of these types of situations and he has been in the business for over 30 years. One of the more humorous was when he was storing a binary, one chemical in each bunker with plenty of separation. When inspected he told the authorities that he was not storing explosives. Off the hook right? Wrongo - They asked him what he did with these two chemicals and he said he combines them on site to do the work. They cited him for manufacturing explosives without a license. He was not pleased LOL.

[4eyedbuzzard]

It's a binary chemical incendiary device!!!

Er, ah, like a common safety match?


Just saying, I don't think it's illegal as potassium permanganate has legitimate antiseptic uses in a first aid kit and also water treatment/purification uses, and glycerol skin products(humectants), as well as laxatives are very common. Virtually any sugar can be used as a substitute for the glycerol fuel as well. Add to that the reaction is incendiary in an unconfined space, not explosive, and the intent is to start a fire for legitimate purpose.


I doubt there could be legislation written to outlaw possession of such common chemicals simply because so many of them can be used to create deadly compounds, incendiaries, or even explosives. Base upon what's in most people's homes or on a trip to the supermarket and drugstore, virtually everyone is already in possession of binary and tertiary explosive components. Common items like acetone, peroxide, battery acid, hexamine, bleach, ammonia, fuel oil, fertilizer, etc could brand virtually anyone a criminal.

[WalkinHome]

It's a binary chemical incendiary device!!!

Er, ah, like a common safety match?


Just saying, I don't think it's illegal as potassium permanganate has legitimate antiseptic uses in a first aid kit and also water treatment/purification uses, and glycerol skin products(humectants), as well as laxatives are very common. Virtually any sugar can be used as a substitute for the glycerol fuel as well. Add to that the reaction is incendiary in an unconfined space, not explosive, and the intent is to start a fire for legitimate purpose.


I doubt there could be legislation written to outlaw possession of such common chemicals simply because so many of them can be used to create deadly compounds, incendiaries, or even explosives. Base upon what's in most people's homes or on a trip to the supermarket and drugstore, virtually everyone is already in possession of binary and tertiary explosive components. Common items like acetone, peroxide, battery acid, hexamine, bleach, ammonia, fuel oil, fertilizer, etc could brand virtually anyone a criminal.

Will plead nolo contendere to the illegalities. I see your point but my whole participation was geared to the thought that I do not think that it is a good idea to be messing around with this chemical for such mundane things as fire starting (especially with so many other benign alternatives). This chemical was included in my Special Forces recipe book for improvised explosives so that is where I was coming from. It was not a great leap to my posts LOL. Hopefully hikers will stay away from this stuff and if they don't, I hope that inncocent by standers are not affected. Now if you wanted to use C4 as fuel ..........LOL

[take-a-knee]

Will plead nolo contendere to the illegalities. I see your point but my whole participation was geared to the thought that I do not think that it is a good idea to be messing around with this chemical for such mundane things as fire starting (especially with so many other benign alternatives). This chemical was included in my Special Forces recipe book for improvised explosives so that is where I was coming from. It was not a great leap to my posts LOL. Hopefully hikers will stay away from this stuff and if they don't, I hope that inncocent by standers are not affected. Now if you wanted to use C4 as fuel ..........LOL

Well, you can use C-4 for fuel, though I wouldn't reccomend it because IT CAN GO HIGH ORDER!(that is blowup for you non demo types). A tiny amount of potassium permanganate will not, so, all you explosive experts who've never blown anything up, say what you will, but this is a viable method of lighting a fire under adverse circumstances and it is a hell of a lot more reliable, compact, and lighter than a fire piston, bow&drill, etc. My personal pick is a cut-down magnesium bar/hacksaw blade and a supply of vaseline-soaked cotton swabs. The mag bar/hacksaw blade will light a cannister stove also.

[Fiddler]

This chemical was included in my Special Forces recipe book for improvised explosives

Don't forget to tell them what you can do with egg whites plus 2 or 3 other equally common household ingredients.

[Christopher Robin]

I collect used candells and wrap 3" in a 5" x 6" of wax papper around the candell and twist the ends making a good fire stared. I put about two of them in a small zip-lock.
Audrey

[Bob S]

I collect used candells and wrap 3" in a 5" x 6" of wax papper around the candell and twist the ends making a good fire stared. I put about two of them in a small zip-lock.
Audrey

I make homemade fire starters out of cardboard and strike anyplace matches.
I put matches in the holes of corrugated cardboard (every other hole) cut into strips and then I dip them in wax. I can cut off the amount that I will need for each fire. They are self contained; I just scrape the wax off the match head and strike anyplace. No need to use a lighter or matches. These are 100% waterproof, The only problem with them is everybody wants me to make them some. I cut them up as I need them, usually in a length of 4 or 5 matched. Just let all the matches light up and put it down and pile on the tinder. These always work and are very inexpensive and quick to make.

I bought an old pot at the thrift store for melting wax and use a Sterno can & stove to melt it in the garage. Candle wax is easy to come by at garage sales for almost nothing. I have a box with like 15 pounds of it I have accumulated over the years.

[Bob S]

That’s weird, the first sentence in my post is in bold, I did not type it in bold????

[TIDE-HSV]

LOL! I had to have a laugh at this thread, since it's what got my chemistry set confiscated when I was nine years old. The chemistry set was supposed to be "safe." However, potassium nitrate was easily obtainable at the drugstore, so I obtained it. I already had the sulphur and carbon I needed for black powder. I made a bed of the black powder. Then, I nestled a bed of powdered magnesium (what makes a sparkler sparkle) atop the black powder, and placed the potassium permanganate (potash) on that and poured the glycerin on the potash. Then I ran for the kitchen door, since I'd done this in the middle of the kitchen table. The flash-bang was spectacular and a column of smoke rose and formed a mushroom cloud against the kitchen ceiling. Unfortunately, the sulphur splattered out and marked the wallpaper for good (bad technique?). This was 1948. So, the chemistry set was gone and I had to look at the wallpaper for several more years until the house finally got sold to my grandmother...

[Darwin again]

Okay Darwin, I'm no english or physics major, but I am retired Special Forces, and I've blown up more stuff than you could probably imagine, so you are obviously FOS on that point. I'm also not a lawyer but I'm sure you are FOS about the legality of using two chemicals to start a campfire. Also, if you think it is smart to rely on a 99cent cig lighter to produce a potentially life-saving fire then you are obviously the one who's stuck on stupid. The SAS has taught this technique for decades and it is also taught at Army SERE, they don't teach "bic lighter". So, I guess the whole spec ops community is a bunch "mental defectives". You might oughta shut your ignorant pie-whole before you look even dumber.

Your resume: I don't care.
Take your intimidating tone elsewhere, thanks.

There are many better ways of doing things than the military way.
I've use a Bic mini for all of my AT hiking and it works fine. (I carry two.)

Feel free to ask a Park Ranger or two if it's okey dokey to start fires that way in their AO. I think you'll be surprised at their response. You might even be considered a person of interest just for asking.

Eeeeeeeeverybody's a former special operator...
(Here's a hint: The real ones don't talk about it; they're quiet and professional.)

Have a nice day. (Who Dares Wins, btw.)