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  1. #1
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Default Potassium Permanganate + Glycerin = Fire

    I just saw this on a Survivorman episode and decided to look it up.

    Does the method of fire starting by using potassium permanganate (KMnO4) and glycerin have any practical use in backpacking or survival, or is this just show? Weight-wise it didn't seem like it took much to do the trick.

    Comments?

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    Default

    How much do those chemicals cost and how much space in a pack? And are they dangerous?


    If you are going to start a fire with something you took backpacking, a Bic Lighter is hard to beat. The things he uses on the show are cute & creative, but I will bet that he has a regular lighter when he’s out in the wild and not doing the show.

    I saw an episode where he used a thing called a “Fire Piston” I thought it was cute, I looked them up on the net. They cost $70.00 and up. If I’m going to carry a fire piston, why not a Bic lighter? For $75.00 I can buy a lot of lighters.

  3. #3
    Registered User shelterbuilder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob S View Post
    How much do those chemicals cost and how much space in a pack? And are they dangerous?


    If you are going to start a fire with something you took backpacking, a Bic Lighter is hard to beat. The things he uses on the show are cute & creative, but I will bet that he has a regular lighter when he’s out in the wild and not doing the show.

    I saw an episode where he used a thing called a “Fire Piston” I thought it was cute, I looked them up on the net. They cost $70.00 and up. If I’m going to carry a fire piston, why not a Bic lighter? For $75.00 I can buy a lot of lighters.
    The fire piston lost its popularity when phosphorus-tipped matches were invented. It now occupies a small niche of popularity with a segment of survivalists and "primitive" campers. Yes, they do work, but they are very expensive for what they are. Yes, Bic lighters are infinitely cheaper!

    Permanganate and glycerin is much the same thing - it's cool to be able to show off your chemistry skills, but there are cheaper, easier ways to get a fire started. And God help you if the two chemicals leak together in your pack - I would hate to be known by the trail name "Roamin' Candle"!

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ChinMusic View Post
    I just saw this on a Survivorman episode and decided to look it up.

    Does the method of fire starting by using potassium permanganate (KMnO4) and glycerin have any practical use in backpacking or survival, or is this just show? Weight-wise it didn't seem like it took much to do the trick.

    Comments?
    It does work well and it doesn't take much to light up. Be advised if you go to a chemical supply house to buy these items you'll likely be required to show some ID for obvious reasons.

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    Default

    In other words, don't forget the ID. A list you might not want to be on...

    Might not want to try and buy the Jethro size.

    Isn't this the stuff used to make volcanos blow in grade school? (70's)

  6. #6
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudhead View Post

    Isn't this the stuff used to make volcanos blow in grade school? (70's)
    Can't be. There would have been too much heat.

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    Default Careful

    Combining potassium permanganate with certain other easy to find chemicals will create explosives. That is not the problem with using these combinations. The big number one rule is DON'T TRY TO CONFINE IT OR STOMP IT OUT!! I'm just sayin.....
    Life is what happens while you are making other plans. John Lennon

  8. #8

    Default Thermite

    Those chemicals create a thermite reaction. It's nothing you want to mess with unless you've got specialized training; very very dangerous.

    If any authority types find out you've got them on your person, or word travels around on the trail that you're making intense little explosions with chemicals, plan on eventually spending some quality time with law enforcement. Perhaps of the federal flavor. Making explosives is taken seriously in these times...

    The bic is best. (And won't get you detained or arrested.)

  9. #9
    Registered User Wise Old Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mudhead View Post
    In other words, don't forget the ID. A list you might not want to be on...
    I found this, kinda kills the whole idea

    Steps required for ordering Potassium Permanganate
    1. Fill out Hazmat Waiver Form. All orders regardless of size require this form to be filled out and faxed or mailed. Do not submit your order for this product until you have faxed your hazmat waiver form.Click here to open the HazMat Waiver Form
    2. Place your order thru the website. This product cannot be ordered by phone.
    Potassium Permanganate can only be shipped via UPS ground in the continental United States. Do not choose Air shipping during checkout. We cannot ship this product to Alaska, Canada, Puerto Rico, Hawaii or anywhere else outside the continental USA. There are no exceptions.
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  10. #10
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by take-a-knee View Post
    It does work well and it doesn't take much to light up. Be advised if you go to a chemical supply house to buy these items you'll likely be required to show some ID for obvious reasons.
    I prob could get a small sample from my old college chem lab, unless it is something protected to a greater degree than I know.

    bob s - For SURE you would not want to carry the two items near each other.

  11. #11

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    the whole point of primitive tools like a fire piston is that you can make them yourself

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    Registered User Dances with Mice's Avatar
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    Potassium permangate wouldn't be my top choice for inclusion in a survival kit and I'd never keep it in my house. I wouldn't trust untrained people to handle it and a clever 13 year-old could go from making chemical fires in his backyard to building a bomb with just one trip to the refrigerator. There are many other compounds that yield fire when mixed and are much easier to obtain than Potssium per, and they would have other uses in survival situations. I'm not going to list them, sorry. But the last time I was at Wal-Mart I saw two examples on shelves a couple of steps from each other.
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    When they all did tricks for you.

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    Ah! Exothermic reactions, what fun. Reminds me of my misspent youth making gunpowder mortar tubes. Those days are long gone, thank heaven. Survived with all my fingers and eyebrows too. Some didn't.

    Why not learn from our predecessors? There are several ways to make fire by friction with nothing more flammable than wood. It takes practice, but when you know how to do it, you'll never be out of fire making materials. Then there are the ferrocerium and steel methods (spark sticks, lighter flint wheels), and the old favorite flint and steel. Tinders range from traditional thru natural to exotics like steel wool, and various petroleum derivatives. And as the story goes, boy scout to boy scout, making fire by rubbing two sticks together works best if one of them is a (waterproofed) match. Resort to deflagration reactions (other than matches safely waterproofed in wax -- make sure they are not safety matches) is not safe, nor in these days of hysteria, likely not legal. I'm sure there are even more nifty ways to make fire in extremis. Why not learn a few? I generally carry a lighter plus a ferrocerium rod and striker, and some waterproofed matches. I also carry a knife (two actually) with which to gather tinder. The lighter is most convenient, the matches next up, the ferrocerium is almost foolproof, and if all else fails, I will try to make fire by friction using a bow drill technique. I'm not ultra reliable at that, so I need more practice. I plead a mis-spent youth with too much technology.

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    Registered User kayak karl's Avatar
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    Default Rockets

    Quote Originally Posted by GGS2 View Post
    Ah! Exothermic reactions, what fun. Reminds me of my misspent youth making gunpowder mortar tubes. Those days are long gone, thank heaven. Survived with all my fingers and eyebrows too. Some didn't.
    same miss-spent use, but with me it was rockets, every combination zinc, sulfur, potassium, nitrate, azide you can think of. we used the permanganate thing for time delay fuse. ended up using a flash bulb (w/ glass broken) could time take off better. rocket career ended with hole in baseball field and 11 broken windows in school. if that happened with todays laws, i'd probably be getting out about now.
    Potassium Permanganate is very unstable (potassium nitrate is used to make it; saltpeter, fertilizer). will soak up moisture quickly and then is useless for fire. turns everything purple. handlotion can set it off

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    Registered User GGS2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kayak karl View Post
    Potassium Permanganate is very unstable (potassium nitrate is used to make it; saltpeter, fertilizer). will soak up moisture quickly and then is useless for fire. turns everything purple. handlotion can set it off
    Good for removing blood stains from lab glassware, I'm told. I don't have any bloodstained glassware, so I've never tried it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChinMusic View Post
    I just saw this on a Survivorman episode and decided to look it up.

    Does the method of fire starting by using potassium permanganate (KMnO4) and glycerin have any practical use in backpacking or survival, or is this just show? Weight-wise it didn't seem like it took much to do the trick.

    Comments?
    The show is about using the things you have at hand. I read an interview where the Survivorman uses the normal things we do when he goes out for fun. By the way I started a thread yesterday about the show.

  17. #17
    Registered User kayak karl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry7 View Post
    The show is about using the things you have at hand. I read an interview where the Survivorman uses the normal things we do when he goes out for fun. By the way I started a thread yesterday about the show.
    potassium permanganate and glycerin are not found in todays med kits. i think some of the show is a little sensationalizm. its a fun to know, but not a need to know to survive. i still like the show

  18. #18
    Registered User ChinMusic's Avatar
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    I would NEVER argue with a Special Forces guy regarding pie-hole......

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    You can buy potassium permanganate at photo suppliers or where water treatment supplies are sold - in fairly large quantities. Glycerine can be purchased almost anywhere, and sucrose or other sugars will also work to create the reaction. Given its common use as an oxidizer in many areas, and the quantities purchased for survival kits, I doubt anyone will see helicopters flying around their house after buying it.

    I think waterproof matches, some vaselined cotton balls, and a couple of esbits are an easier survival backup for all those survival situations encountered in the AT wilderness.
    "That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett

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    Awful the amount of bickering on this thread when people are looking for help. As for the Bic lighter it is a "cheap safe and sage idea" dunk it in a glass of water and it is suddenly a useless item. Put it in a watertight container or purchase a water tight, wind proof one - all the better. Hey if you want to go purchase chemicals to make you hike better that's fine. Thousands of lights available each way, far more than matches. Survival isn't hiking the AT. Survival skills are in the head, its about making the best in spite of the worst moment in you life. It's about taking advantage of what is at hand. Not about the legality of chemical reactions. If you start a fire that gets out of control then that is a different matter. I respect all your opinions - until you write something inappropriate. How about we all step up after this and clean it up.
    Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.

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