What's the deal with quilts?

[astrogirl]

I like my homemade down quilt, because it allows me to sleep on my stomach. Can't do that with a regular bag. As a bonus, I save some weight.

Also works great for those few times I use my hammock.

If you have no problems sleeping on your back, a regular bag works out fine. And probably cheaper. I can sleep on my back but it takes 3-4 nights out before I can do it without issue (too tired to care). Most of my trips are only 2-5 nights which means I'd like to sleep well from the get go, which for me means stomach sleeping. Only issue I have with stomach sleeping is I need a longer pad (I use a prolite 3 s) since my thighs and knees need some protection. If I can commit to back sleeping I could get by with a shorter pad (torso only).

This is exactly why I switched to a quilt long before I got a hammock.

[JAK]

I don't understand why you can't sleep on your stomach with a sleeping bag.

[tlbj6142]

I don't understand why you can't sleep on your stomach with a sleeping bag.

Your face is inside the hood. Kind of hard to breathe through it. Guess you could tuck it under your head, but doing that you might as well not have a hood. Plus a normal bag is designed to prevent drafts with a combination of the hood and an internal collar. If you don't use the hood, the drafts become an issue. Which means you need to supply your own hood/hat like you do with a quilt. So, why have a hood if you can't use?

[le loupe]

your face is in the hood if you roll over within the bag.

why not roll over onto you side or belly so that the bag moves with you. Then some part of the hood would be available to rest your face on and still leave you with plenty of unobstructed breathing

[tlbj6142]

why not roll over onto you side or belly so that the bag moves with you.

You still have the draft issue. Sleeping bags reduce/eliminate the lost of heat due to convection currents by expecting you to cinch down the hood such that your face (or just your nose) is showing combined with 1 or more "draft collars". You can't use the bag like that if you are laying on our stomach. Now, if it is warm enough such that you don't need to be too concerned about drafts, then you are correct, you could just let the hood flop over the back of your head.

With a quilt (that can snap together behind my neck) combined with a high-loft balaclava, I have a fully articulated hood that blocks drafts regardless of my position.

[Dirtygaiters]

You still have the draft issue. Sleeping bags reduce/eliminate the lost of heat due to convection currents by expecting you to cinch down the hood such that your face (or just your nose) is showing combined with 1 or more "draft collars". You can't use the bag like that if you are laying on our stomach. Now, if it is warm enough such that you don't need to be too concerned about drafts, then you are correct, you could just let the hood flop over the back of your head.

With a quilt (that can snap together behind my neck) combined with a high-loft balaclava, I have a fully articulated hood that blocks drafts regardless of my position.

There's insulation on all sides of a bag for a reason. You can roll onto your side and then roll the bag around with you so the bag's face-hole is facing the proper direction. It's not that hard. No need to breath into the hood.

[Dirtygaiters]

DirtyGaiters,

I agree some people will like quilts, some will like bags. That's fine, but I think you are slightly twisting things to make it sound like bags are better. You started with a comparison to Jack's R Better quilts - that's fine, but then when Peter Pan points out his quilts are less expensive, you bring up Nunatak.

Well, if you go by Nunatak, then their Ghost quilt, which is rated the same as the WM Summerlite bag is 5 oz lighter (using Quantum Pertex fabric, size Medium). Pricing is relatively similar (the Ghost is $7 more than the Summerlite).

One thing Pan did not mention is that the No Sniveler does have a little more loft, being overstuffed for overall 2.5 inches of loft versus the 2 inches (one side) of the Summerlite. Which should make it slightly warmer.

On a personal note, I have used the WM Ultralite, a Ray Jardine quilt, a Jacks R Better Nest Down Under (both under my hammock and on the ground as a top quilt) and a Nunatak Ghost (customized with 1 oz less down for warmer temps). I can say that the quilt is more comfortable for ME. I am primarily and side and stomach sleeper, and like to draw my knees up. With the quilt, I can configure it better to fit the way I like to sleep - I just tuck it around me.

I do toss and turn a lot at night. I just get used to rolling under the quilt instead of rolling the quilt with me. With a sleeping bag, I end up with the part I've been squishing under me (reducing the loft) on top, making for cold spots until it lofts back up. Also, if I use the bag as a quilt, I have the hood to deal with. That works okay as long as I sleep on my left side (left zip bag), because I can tuck the hood around the back of my head. But when I switch to my right side, I am breathing into the hood. If I sleep on my stomach, the hood is awkwardly placed over part of my head.

I find the quilt as comfortable on the ground as in my hammock. I've used it with a Big Agnes Insulated Air Core, a RidgeRest, and a Gossamer Gear Thin Light for ground sleeping, as well as combining some of these pads for colder temperature (20 F or so). In my hammock, using the Jack's R Better Quilt Down Under and a GG Thin Light, I was toasty sleeping under my Nunatak Quilt with a Montbell U.L. Down Inner Parka, adding a ~2 oz fleece hat later in the night. I am really excited about using this combination this year, since I am always going to be taking a jacket and hat along any way for use around camp during the evening and morning.

Anyway, that's my take on quilts. Obviously others will vary. That's why we have forums, to get different opinions.

I mentioned Nunatak in my first post so I don't think it was a non sequiter at all. 2.5" of loft is more than the 2" of loft in the Summerlite, but there's more to temperature rating than inches of loft. Volume of internal dead air space, resistance to drafts, and amount of body coverage also come into play. Generally, inches of loft count for a little less in a quilt than in a bag simply because of the quilt's tendency to lose warmth through accidental drafts and the fact that they don't cover your head. Nobody is saying that a quilt can't be enjoyed or preferred by people, and I'm not going to argue with your preference for them. Although like my previous post, I'd like to re-iterate my confusion by people who say that a sleeping bag forces you to sleep on your back if you don't want to breathe into the hood's insulation. It's not that hard to twist the bag around so the face-hole is oriented in the right direction, and in fact that's the reason a bag has insulation on all sides.

The main selling point I've heard of quilts is that you're going to be wearing all your clothing while you're sleeping anyway so it's possible to boost the temperature rating of a quilt and so forth. But there are other things you need with a quilt, such as a hood or insulated balaclava, or high-loft insulated pants, which wouldn't be required with a comparably rated bag, and that simply add weight to a quilt/clothing set-up, no matter which way you slice it.

[tlbj6142]

There's insulation on all sides of a bag for a reason. You can roll onto your side and then roll the bag around with you so the bag's face-hole is facing the proper direction. It's not that hard. No need to breath into the hood.

It works on your side, but not on your stomach since your shoulders are perpendicular to your face. On your back and/or side your face is line with your shoulders.

I have a regular bag. I'm not anti-bag and pro-quilt. For me quilt works better and offers way more flexibility than a bag for all but winter conditions. I'm just pointing out scenarios in which a normal sleeping bag's configuration does NOT work. Or at least does not work well.

[Mags]

Man...you guys are passionate about fart sacks.

Quilts work for some and not others. Sleeping bags are ideal for some, and not others.


Cripe!

[Skidsteer]

Man...you guys are passionate about fart sacks.

Quilts work for some and not others. Sleeping bags are ideal for some, and not others.


Cripe!

Sheesh, I have both. I've managed not to die in either a quilt or a bag.

These days I love to sleep with my quilt.

But I'm notoriously fickle.

[tlbj6142]

The main selling point I've heard of quilts is that you're going to be wearing all your clothing while you're sleeping anyway so it's possible to boost the temperature rating of a quilt and so forth.

You can (and should) do the same with a bag. A quilt system is typically lighter than the same bag system. Bags have zippers, bottom insulation, hoods, draft tubes, etc. Quilt systems make use of other items you are already carrying to accomplish the same thing. Thereby reducing their effective weight by more than just the minor savings over the bag.

But there are other things you need with a quilt, such as a hood or insulated balaclava, or high-loft insulated pants,

You should be carrying long johns, an insulated top and a warm hat regardless of which system you use.

which wouldn't be required with a comparably rated bag

...but are carrying anyway. Therein lies the majority of the weight savings.

[astrogirl]

For me, the problem is the mummy bag. I can sleep in a rectangular bag on my stomach, but not a mummy. I simply cannot get my legs where I need them to be in a mummy, and I can with the quilt. WFM, YMMV, etc.

[Skidsteer]

The JRB Katahdin Quilt I have has full omni tape closure and drawstrings on both ends.

IOW, you can make a footbox and seal it up like a sleeping bag if you want to. So far I've been happy just to use it as a quilt. It worked fine on Springer for New Year's Eve.

Toasty. Except for a few minutes around 4 AM when the wind uprooted half my tarp.

[Dirtygaiters]

A quilt system is typically lighter than the same bag system.

Prove it.

[High Altitude]

You can (and should) do the same with a bag. A quilt system is typically lighter than the same bag system. Bags have zippers, bottom insulation, hoods, draft tubes, etc. Quilt systems make use of other items you are already carrying to accomplish the same thing. Thereby reducing their effective weight by more than just the minor savings over the bag.You should be carrying long johns, an insulated top and a warm hat regardless of which system you use....but are carrying anyway. Therein lies the majority of the weight savings.

Exactly!

Complete multi use clothing/sleeping system.

[River Runner]

I mentioned Nunatak in my first post so I don't think it was a non sequiter at all. 2.5" of loft is more than the 2" of loft in the Summerlite, but there's more to temperature rating than inches of loft. Volume of internal dead air space, resistance to drafts, and amount of body coverage also come into play. Generally, inches of loft count for a little less in a quilt than in a bag simply because of the quilt's tendency to lose warmth through accidental drafts and the fact that they don't cover your head. Nobody is saying that a quilt can't be enjoyed or preferred by people, and I'm not going to argue with your preference for them. Although like my previous post, I'd like to re-iterate my confusion by people who say that a sleeping bag forces you to sleep on your back if you don't want to breathe into the hood's insulation. It's not that hard to twist the bag around so the face-hole is oriented in the right direction, and in fact that's the reason a bag has insulation on all sides.

The main selling point I've heard of quilts is that you're going to be wearing all your clothing while you're sleeping anyway so it's possible to boost the temperature rating of a quilt and so forth. But there are other things you need with a quilt, such as a hood or insulated balaclava, or high-loft insulated pants, which wouldn't be required with a comparably rated bag, and that simply add weight to a quilt/clothing set-up, no matter which way you slice it.

When you compare the No Sniveler for weight and the Nunatak for cost, that doesn't seem quite the fair comparison. Compare bags and quilts of similar price. I just pointed out the Nunatak Ghost is 5 oz lighter to the comparable price Summerlite.

I think you may have missed my point that when i use a sleeping bag AS A QUILT, I breathe into the hood when I turn on my right side, due to the hood being on that side of the quilt, not fastened around my head. I could not use the sleeping bag unzipped as a quilt and still have the hood fastened up around my head.

While you do need some sort of head covering (hat or insulated balaclava depending on the temps), you don't need insulated pants with a quilt any more than you do with a bag of similar temperature rating. Your legs are not exposed.

A primary benefit (weight savings) is that you can use clothing that you would be carrying with you anyway for use around camp (jacket, hat, long johns, etc.) as part of your sleeping system and take a quilt that is lighter than what you typically would if you are not sleeping in your clothing. This can also work with a bag, if there is adequate space not to compromise any loft in a jacket or insulated pants if you use those. However, as pointed out in the Ghost/Summerlite example, you are saving 5 oz on the quilt. Perhaps 2 oz of that might be eaten away by carrying warmer head gear than you would with a bag - perhaps not, depending upon what type of head gear you normally take for 32 degree weather to wear in camp or while hiking in breezy conditions.

[tlbj6142]

Prove it.

My homemade down quilt weighs 18oz with 2.5" loft. I'd say it is good 'till 25F as part of a system. All you need for 3-season backpacking. The comparable western mountaineering bag would be the AlpinLite at 31oz or the MegaLite at 24oz.

I need to wear my Balaclava at those temps, so add in another 2.4 oz for my Cocoon Pro 90. But you have to give me a credit of at least ~1oz because you have a fleece hat in your pack.

So, 18 + 2.4 - 1 == 19.4 oz vs. 24 or 31 oz. Plus the quilt is far more flexible. And in my case, cost quite a bit less.

Everything else is the same for both systems....

Prolite 3 S
Long Johns
Sleeping socks
Insulating top
Gloves

[Swiss Roll]

Well, this has been a fascinating thread. Thanks to everyone who has thrown in their .02. From the day I posted the original question, I have changed my mind no less than half a dozen times. Each side's arguments have been well-reasoned and forcefully argued. The two items that I have been considering stack up as follows:

Montbell SS 30 degree bag
$270
23 oz

JacksRBetter Hudson River
$199.99, on sale!
19 oz

I am leaning heavily toward the quilt now. The $70 price difference and 4 oz weight difference are two factors. I also like the thought of using a hat or balaclava (an item that I would be carrying anyway) as a hood that moves with you. I am a little concerned about the draft issue, but I am primarily a late spring/early fall hiker anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem. And I can always take my 15degree bag if the forecast is iffy. Thanks again, everyone for helping me think through this.

[tlbj6142]

I am a little concerned about the draft issue, but I am primarily a late spring/early fall hiker anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem.

What sort of shelter are you going to use?

[Swiss Roll]

What sort of shelter are you going to use?

Tent. Right now all I have is a Hubba Hubba, but I hope to lose a Hubba by September.