Practical UL Challenge for Scouts

[Dirtygaiters]

You don't have to spend a lot of money. Maybe if you want to get down below 8-10# base weight. But a 12#-15# base weight can be accomplished with little money.

Though if you make it a contest with prizes, you give those that can spend more of an advantage than those that cannot. Maybe you need to set a spending limit? Or a minimum weight floor. Any one whose base weight is below 15# "wins". That way those that are below 10# and spent $700 don't get anything more than those that spent $150 at the thrift store and came in at 14#.

That's just the thing. Kids don't look at it as an "accomplishment" to reduce pack weight. They don't even see it as a hobby. That's something us old farts do because we are sick of feeling the pain from heavy backpacks yet are still stuck in traditional backpacking philosophy. So we have to "work" to break ourselves from the habit of needing to bring a bunch of heavy equipment, or else we don't want to give up the luxuries so we spend countless hours spreadsheeting our gear and researching lighter alternatives, only to make a purchase, and then find an even lighter alternative. What that boils down to is a whole bunch of nitpicking, and pedaanticism that gets in the way of just having fun on a backpacking trip.

For the money side of it, my understanding of ultralight gear is that most of the more inexpensive ultralight gear is not durable enough to survive the way young boy scouts treat their gear. Correct me if I'm wrong...

[Tin Man]

I plan to put together a list of reasonably priced, reasonably weighted, durable options for our scouts, so they can focus on more important activities than shopping and hounding me with questions.

[Tin Man]

I am a scoutmaster and this past winter we went on a 2 night 20-miler in the Sipsey Wilderness in Alabama. We had a similar problem with parents packing too much for the scouts to carry. I learned alot form this outing. We stopped short of our original goal and made a base camp and hiked out and back instead of a thru hike as planned. This was due in large part to the weight of some of the boys' packs. This was an extremely cold outing for Alabama (16 degree nights) so I understood some of the parents went overboard on warm clothing and such, but much of the items packed were overkill. We will definitely be having a parent meeting prior to our next hiking trip. By the way, I taught all of the boys in the troop how to make pepsi can stoves that burn denatured alcohol prior to this trip(...a scout is thrifty..). They worked great. Sleeping bag weight will always be an issue in my troop due to the fact that most of my boys' parents cannot afford the high-dollar light bags. Our boys split up the tent carrying, one carried poles and rainfly while the other carried tent and stakes for a two-man tent. We will continue to try new things to reduce weight so we can hike further in the future. Thanks for posting on this forum. Many of these postings were useful to me.

I had the boys bring their packs loaded with personal gear into the scout meeting just prior to our outing last weekend. Even after I had sent them home in a prior meeting with a packing list, several came with too much stuff. At the meeting, we divvied up the patrol gear (split up tent parts and cooking gear) and non-perishable food and packed them up. I had to take some of the extra stuff out of some boys packs for everything to fit. We then weighed everyone in. The smaller boys had 22-25 pounds to carry and some of the larger scouts were pushing 30 pounds. I sent them home with instructions not to unpack anything. It worked out great for our 2 mile hike to base camp. I am certain they can handle more miles after last weekend.

[SteveJ]

Because a major part of reducing pack weight is shopping and shopping isn't fun if you don't have a lot of money or would rather be on the trail than in front of a computer screen reading the latest SUL blogs and searching for websites that sell UL gear that will require babying. Kids just want to get out there and have fun, even be rough on their gear. Scouts in particular get a kick out of bringing things on trips that they don't need, because it's fun sometimes. It's part of the fun of being in Scouts to carry a too-heavy pack, and really, if you want them to learn the real value of ultralight backpacking, they need to learn from trial and error how the more weight that goes into a backpack can affect their experience. Besides, kids are tough and are actually able to carry 50% of their body weight on their backs.

I slightly agree with some of what you post, until you get to the last statement. I've seen many 11 or 12 y.o. scouts show up on their first backpacking trip, with just a little too much weight (they weigh 70 lbs, and carry 25 lbs - after we've pulled 5 lbs of clothes and extra gear out before we leave for mom to take back home), only never to see them again because they were miserable the whole trip and think that if that's what scouting is all about they sure don't want to be a part of it. This also, by the way, probably turns them off to the idea of backpacking for life.

I'll go along with what you said for the 17 y.o. that weighs about 185 who brought a 45 lb pack on our Philmont prep trip last week. His lesson of the week, communicated on day 2, after a 14.5 mile day over Blood, Levelland Mtn, Cowrock Mtn, and Wildcat Mtn / Hogpen Gap: "Heavy packs suck." We all got a good laugh and thought it was a lesson well-learned. NOT one that a 11 yr old 1st yr scout should have to experience.

[SteveJ]

I had the boys bring their packs loaded with personal gear into the scout meeting just prior to our outing last weekend. Even after I had sent them home in a prior meeting with a packing list, several came with too much stuff. At the meeting, we divvied up the patrol gear (split up tent parts and cooking gear) and non-perishable food and packed them up. I had to take some of the extra stuff out of some boys packs for everything to fit. We then weighed everyone in. The smaller boys had 22-25 pounds to carry and some of the larger scouts were pushing 30 pounds. I sent them home with instructions not to unpack anything. It worked out great for our 2 mile hike to base camp. I am certain they can handle more miles after last weekend.

Great approach, Tin Man! If we have Scouts who are below Star go on a backpacking trip, we require them to bring their packed backpacks, including food and all clothing, to the meeting before the trip. We then have an older scout and ASM weigh the pack and go through it (preferably with mom or dad standing there). We'll also re-weigh the packs before loading up to go on Friday night....

[jesse]

I'm really really convinced you're over 40 and don't hang around with a lot of young boys under 20 if you say this so adamantly.

yea, I'm over 40. My experience with boys is, if their packs are too heavy, they will not want to go backpacking again. Its just not fun.

[Camping Dave]

It's part of the fun of being in Scouts to carry a too-heavy pack

You are wrong.

Besides, kids are tough and are actually able to carry 50% of their body weight on their backs.

You are wrong and dangerous. The National Safety Council and the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons recommends that a child's backpack should weigh no more than 15 to 20 percent of the child's body weight (http://www.nsc.org/library/facts/backpack.htm)

Kids don't look at it as an "accomplishment" to reduce pack weight.

You are wrong and dangerous and obviously unexperienced with kids.

[tlbj6142]

For the money side of it, my understanding of ultralight gear is that most of the more inexpensive ultralight gear is not durable enough to survive the way young boy scouts treat their gear. Correct me if I'm wrong...

I think you have this backwards. "normally" Expensive == light == less durable. you can reach 15# using the same stuff boys carry to get to 40#, but carry less. The biggest issue is typically quantity (or wrong type, multi-tool instead of single blade knife) not quality for folks that are carrying more than 15#.

For 3-season hiking, no one should ever carry more than 15# base weight. Period. Unless they want to (lots of camera equipment, books, dog food, etc.). Those that carry more are afraid of something or don't care (which is fine, if you can carry the weight without issue, it isn't an issue).

[Creepy Uncle]

the main purpose is for scouts to gain an appreciation and respect for the outdoors. I've been the 80 pound kid wearing a 40 pound pack, and despite the pains of the first winter trip, i was out the next month and the next.

learning how to responsibly and thriftily reduce pack weight is an important lesson, but i would steer clear of making UL camping the fulcrum of the trips lessons.

UL philosophies are better served to the elderly (i apologize to the not-quite old ULers out there), kids are more resilient and will go through nintendo withdrawals whether their pack weighs 20 pounds or 80 lbs. keeping their head in the game is enough of a challenge without compounding the idea that they could have a lighter load or that the adult that is "sharing the experience" has a pack that weighs half their own. I've logged thousands of miles in a scouting setting as a scout, employed guide and Scoutmaster. and it is always easier for the scouts to see that the leader's pack weighs more than their own. If you can afford the great light stuff, great! keep it to yourself.

one of the simplest disciplinary threats is to say "if you don't behave, Timmy, you're carrying my pack for the next two miles"

please chime in if you have a better insight that hasn't been previously shared, but it seems as though it would be harder to keep the younger scouts excited on the trips if the older scouts have the lighter loads. in my mind, the older scouts should be conditioned to carry all the patrol gear while the young ones only are responsible for personals.

to me, a better challenge would be.. "how cheaply can you go to the woods?"

you can always reduce the weight by having a mandatory pack shakedown at the scout hut during the meeting before the trip.

[Creepy Uncle]

You are wrong.



You are wrong and dangerous. The National Safety Council and the American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons recommends that a child's backpack should weigh no more than 15 to 20 percent of the child's body weight (http://www.nsc.org/library/facts/backpack.htm)




You are wrong and dangerous and obviously unexperienced with kids.

you're not exactly doing a great job of justifying your responses. the only elongated response you gave was providing a link to the dangers of overloading a grade school frameless rucksack with books. kids can carry a much higher percentage with a properly fitted framed pack with a hipbelt.

but i suspect that responding to your post may be mistake, as i may be proved "wrong and inexperienced" as well

[Mags]

I've seen way too many over burderned boyscouts (and children in general)walking up the trails just being plain miserable. What a way to kill a passion for backpacking.

[Creepy Uncle]

I've seen way too many over burderned boyscouts (and children in general)walking up the trails just being plain miserable. What a way to kill a passion for backpacking.

it's not exactly the most exciting stimuli available to young kids nowadays (their perspective, not ours). anytime you run this type of program, you have to be the one to furnish the excitement, otherwise you end up with scouts setting random fires and knife fighting.

It honestly takes them reaching age 14-15 before they can sit back and enjoy the moments. Peer pressure keeps them in it until then. but once the bug bites, the sting last forever

[russb]

Great approach, Tin Man! If we have Scouts who are below Star go on a backpacking trip, we require them to bring their packed backpacks, including food and all clothing, to the meeting before the trip. We then have an older scout and ASM weigh the pack and go through it (preferably with mom or dad standing there). We'll also re-weigh the packs before loading up to go on Friday night....

One key is in this post, you have the older boys teach the younger. Also, the first trip out should not be a long distance backpacking trip. For a boy new to the outdoors, camping, and backpacking things need to move slowly. Too often, well meaning adults jump in the deep end with the boys before the boys are ready. That is what turns off boys from backpacking, not solely the weight on their backs. That's my 2 cents based on having been a scout (through Eagle) and volunteering at 3 different troops over the years.

[russb]

I've seen way too many over burderned boyscouts (and children in general)walking up the trails just being plain miserable. What a way to kill a passion for backpacking.

In my experience, it isn't the weight of their packs (though that compounds the issue) it is the distance being hiked. Boys in general want to be at the destination, they do not enjoy the journey (at first). (Of course many do, and I am oversimplifying here.) But the point is, the boys are miserable even when carrying nothing if the desire for the destination is not greater than the dislike of the distance hiking to get there. Properly done, boys can learn that the better destinations are more remote and require greater hiking, after a while they learn to enjoy the journey as well. It is a process and one best taught in small increments from boy to boy.

[Ramble~On]

Wow.

My involvement with Scouting has always been about the outdoors.
Sure there is a lot more to it than that...meetings, uniforms, citizenship etc..but my draw is the outdoor related stuff and I was instantly drawn to High Adventure. I'm an addicted backpacker...and you're reading one of my posts on a backapcking related website right now. You're here reading this so I guess you and I have something in common huh?
In my opinion introducing Scouts to UL backpacking principles is a good idea but I think that it is something that needs to be done with care.
There is a fine line...too heavy or too light. Each can equally ruin a trip and perhaps form an opinion about backpacking that isn't accurate.
First impressions are very important and that brings me to this saying.
"The more I carry..the more I like camping. The less I carry, the more I like hiking"
Without leadership Scouting fails.
I have seen excellent leadership and sadly I have witnessed adults in a leadership position who have no business working with youth.
Any backpacking trip leader should be aware of what each participant is carrying. They ought to take responsiblity for each member of the crew enjoying themselves and benefitting/learning from the experience.
- - Pack shakedowns should be mandatory!
Not all scouts or their families can afford lightweight gear and that needs to be taken into consideration when Bobby Boyscout has a sleeping bag that weighs 5 pounds. When talking to Bobby about UL you might want to consider that the sleeping bag he is carrying is the same sleeping bag that Bobby's father used when he was a scout 20 years ago...Bobby might be very, very proud to be the new owner of that sleeping bag and commmenting about it being heavy might offend him.
Getting the right balance of weight spread out through the crew is pretty important and a key ingredient of having a successful trip.
Someone with a "big four" base weight of 15 pounds shouldn't be expected to carry the same amount of patrol gear/food as someone with a big four weight of 5 pounds.
There is a safety margin that exists with gear weight while having too much can be a burden it often doesn't lead to the circumstances that having too little can have.
I view UL backpacking as "advanced" and view backpacking with Scouts as "introductory" through "intermediate". I'd rather have them get the basics mastered before moving on to the college level stuff. A general law of backpacking is to keep the load light and with scouts doing that is a major accomplishment in itself.

[4eyedbuzzard]

When people get partial information and make assumptions about other's motives, it's generally true that they project their own personalities onto the other. So I thought I should say:

Yes, Maple, as a matter of fact I taught Cub Scouts and Boy Scout how to make cat stoves and paid for all the materials out of my own pocket. We're practicing cooking skill at tonight's meeting; I paid for all the food out of my own pocket. Thanks for pointing out my faults via personal email by the way.

Buzzard, actually, I carry more gear than the scouts: my personal gear and also some troop gear. And, as a result of this philosophy you deem so horribly expensive and unfair, some scouts use $15 hammocks and $5 tarps instead of $100 tents, or sneakers instead of boots, and use gear I carried for them.

Gaiter, I'm totally in the dark about why you see something seriously wrong and elitist about challenging Scouts to reduce their pack weight.

You know, it's really impossible to fully encapsulate every idea / experience / interaction in an two minute internet posting. I challenge you three to provide helpful comments and advice in the future.

My suggestion would be that you modify your contest to exclude the weight of certain items such as sleeping bags where weight reduction beyond a reasonable point can only be obtained by having Mom and Dad spend big $$$ on UL equipment like a WM bag, or by sacrificing temperature rating beyond what may be required. Kids love to compete and especially to "beat the coach", and I just think it would fairer if every scout, regardless of their parent's financial situation, could compete without having to go to Mom and Dad and tell them they want a $250 sleeping bag so they can win a pack weight contest with their Troop Leader.

I think it's great that you make equipment such as stoves with your scouts, and I think it's wonderful that you are involved and give your time(and money out of your own pocket). FWIW, I don't agree with some others who feel that misery is the only way to appreciate a light(er) pack or that carrying heavy loads is okay for children.

Sorry if I'm stuck on the money aspect of this, but families all over this country are struggling financially - and outfitting junior with a pack, synthetic bag, and all the other gear is expensive enough already for most. The last thing most parents want to hear from their son is that he "needs" a UL down sleeping bag. I'm just suggesting that you don't help create that "need".

[Tin Man]

Russ,

Good points. Last trip, we kept the heavy backpacking short - 2 miles to base camp on Friday, 7 mile day-hike w/10 essentials on Saturday, and 1 mile back to the cars on Sunday. For May, we talked about shortening the hike in/out and doing a 10 mile day-hike on Saturday with multiple destinations along the way to enjoy longer breaks at an overlook or along a stream. We stopped at spots like this last weekend, but we rushed the breaks to do the miles. We think they might enjoy it more if they had intermediate goals and something to look forward to rather than just hiking.

[Tin Man]

One issue that affects the weight of the big four is finding a backpack that weighs 3 pounds or less, holds 3000 cu.in., costs less than $100, AND fits some of the smaller boys. Kelty and Jansport make scout packs that actually fit the boys and meets the other criteria except for weight. Anyone else have other suggestions?

[Ramble~On]

In my experience, it isn't the weight of their packs (though that compounds the issue) it is the distance being hiked. Boys in general want to be at the destination, they do not enjoy the journey (at first). (Of course many do, and I am oversimplifying here.) But the point is, the boys are miserable even when carrying nothing if the desire for the destination is not greater than the dislike of the distance hiking to get there. Properly done, boys can learn that the better destinations are more remote and require greater hiking, after a while they learn to enjoy the journey as well. It is a process and one best taught in small increments from boy to boy.

Several times a day I will get everyone to spread out and hike for a while with an interval between each hiker. What this does is to get them to stop talking about video games and start looking around. When they're bunched up they have to spend their time looking at the ground at their feet or they'll trip- they don't notice the scenery or views..
I used to like to ask people what they saw during the hike today, what they liked, what they talked about. I always found that the group that stayed bunched togehter talking never saw anything and it was if they weren't even in the woods. The scouts that weren't bunched up would report seeing animals, scenery etc and almost always said they were having a great time...while those bunched up couldn't wait to get to camp and hated hiking. Interesting huh.

[envirodiver]

One issue that affects the weight of the big four is finding a backpack that weighs 3 pounds or less, holds 3000 cu.in., costs less than $100, AND fits some of the smaller boys. Kelty and Jansport make scout packs that actually fit the boys and meets the other criteria except for weight. Anyone else have other suggestions?

I've been with you up to this point, but regarding backpacks, I think the load weight needs to be reduced prior to a light pack. That should be trhe last thing that goes light. My reasoning is that with quality packs, the weight of the pack is directly related to the suspension and the ability of that pack to carry the weight comfortably. I would rather carry an extra pound of pack weight, if that pound is appropriate to the gear weight and makes that gear carry easier.