Practical UL Challenge for Scouts

[Camping Dave]

Gee buzzard, you really seem to have a stick up your exit ramp. What's with the bold-faced shouting? You sound like this is some mandatory thing I'm forcing kids to suffer instead of a voluntary, collaborative, motivating way to help them enjoy the outdoors more. My philosophy costs hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars every year. Your statement that I'm penalizing scouts and reprioritizing their's family's discretionary funds is just absurd; it's hard to imagine what makes you so bitter.

[Tin Man]

I feel no oblgation to abide by these gear lists. We create our own, frequently using a checklist from REI's website and even then we omit some items.

I agree. One thing the Council/District leaders in CT like to point out is that the Scout Handbook and Merit Badge books are soft-cover for a reason -they are flexible and requirements are more like guidelines. Yes, you need to do the activities required to earn a rank or a badge, but within those requirements there is no need to nitpick over each detail. Do what works for your Troop and your boys.

[gold bond]

I do agree that cost is a major factor in gear selection not only for the boys but for some of us adults as well so we have been working with the outfitters in our area to help provide proper gear as well as "lighter" gear for the boys as well as us adults.

The outfitters in our area have put together a selection of gear that is cosiderably marked down so the "parents" can afford it. They as well give us a "scout discount" which helps out alot! Maybe you guys as leaders can appraoch a outfitter in your area and hopefully get something like this started.

[Thoughtful Owl]

OutdoorsMan[/b]]
I feel no oblgation to abide by these gear lists. We create our own, frequently using a checklist from REI's website and even then we omit some items.

I agree. One thing the Council/District leaders in CT like to point out is that the Scout Handbook and Merit Badge books are soft-cover for a reason -they are flexible and requirements are more like guidelines. Yes, you need to do the activities required to earn a rank or a badge, but within those requirements there is no need to nitpick over each detail. Do what works for your Troop and your boys.

FWIW, I am in agreement with both of you. Remember the accronym KISS (Keep it simple stupid). Our troop has our own personal gear list for bp, car camping, summer/spring/winter camping and these lists are posted on the troop web site and also made available in hard copy format for those "w/o internet access". As a unit we spend a good deal of time educating not only the scouts but the parents as well. It is unfortunate when a parent doesn't listen and a young scout has to suffer the consequences of his parents actions before his parents will learn a lesson such as Don H pointed in his post in regards to boots vs tennis shoes.

My objective is to guide the scouts in such a way as for them to have a positive outdoor experience. One they will want to experience again and again, in hopes of developing a positive, character building lifestyle.

[Tin Man]

I do agree that cost is a major factor in gear selection not only for the boys but for some of us adults as well so we have been working with the outfitters in our area to help provide proper gear as well as "lighter" gear for the boys as well as us adults.

The outfitters in our area have put together a selection of gear that is cosiderably marked down so the "parents" can afford it. They as well give us a "scout discount" which helps out alot! Maybe you guys as leaders can appraoch a outfitter in your area and hopefully get something like this started.

Campmor offers a discount for Scout Troops and if you can show your tax-free status, you can take advantage of that as well. The local EMS offers a scout discout weekend in September and perhaps another time during the year.

[kytrailman]

I love to travel light and my winter weight is around 21 lbs with food, so I am in no way anti light weight. I do think that it can become somewhat of an obsession though and can detract form the experience. Alot of users here on WB spend more time making and talking about lightweight gear than they spend out. Gram and tech weenies get on everyones nerves at camp. Steer them in the right direction and let them learn just like we all did. First hand experience is the best learning tool out there fot this type of activity.Good luck to all./

[Don H]

I see scout's clothing as one of the best and cheapest places to start cutting weight. Scouts and moms tend to over pack with the clothes. For a summer weekend trip a change of underwear and 2 pairs of socks is all that is needed for the weekend. You should have seen the look on one moms face when he said "I don't need to take clean underwear, we don't change them anyway".
Philmont requires 3 sets of clothes, one for hiking in, one for cooking in, and one for sleeping in. It's hard to lighten the load with these requirements
Jeans and heavy jacket need to stay home. The new BSA Switchback uniform pants are lightweight and quick drying convertables with zip off legs. Although they are a bit pricey at $35 they can be used as uniform pants making them dual purpose.

[Tin Man]

I am not sure I understand the Philmont clothing requirement other than not sleeping in the clothes you cook in, which is a very good idea in that area. Bears have been a big problem, especially during dry years.

[tlbj6142]

Philmont requires 3 sets of clothes, one for hiking in, one for cooking in, and one for sleeping in. It's hard to lighten the load with these requirements

Is that a recent change? The bpl.com article (from 2006) only mentions needing 1 set for hiking and 1 set for sleeping. Just hike and eat in your primary set. Put on your PJs when it is time for bed.

[max patch]

I like the lessons that backpacking teaches you. Our troop mostly car camps. We tend to bring way too much stuff, way too much food. It takes hours to load and unload all our gear. Backpacking teaches you to be resourceful.

Most of the parents in my son's troop were the same way. I would look in amazement at the stuff they brought car camping. Huge tents, cots, gigantic lanterns, portable tables, and everyone used the 2 burner coleman stove. A few even had the "oven" attachment.

And then they looked at my one man tent and svea 123 stove with similar amazement.

[hammock engineer]

These car camping stories reminded me of the family campouts when I was a kid. My family would get a campsite at a campground with 2 of my relatives families. One had a camper, the rest of us had huge tents. My family would always go with a trailer and car full of stuff. I was talking with my parents recentaly about the trips we took. I remember them being a blast, they remember all the work packing and unpacking. Now I can pack and unpack for however long in 20 minutes. Ahh how times have changed for the better.

[Dirtygaiters]

I've been an assistant scoutmaster for 3 years now, and whenever we go hiking I give the boys the same challenge. If my pack weighs more I buy them dinner. If mine weighs less they owe me a camp job. The only rule is that packs must contain everything the Boy Scout Handbook says you need (i.e., can't leave something home or get someone else to carry your gear).

The idea for the challenge hit me while watching 60 pound boys carry 30 or more pounds of gear. You'd be amazed at what parents load on their kids: 10'x12' heavy duty tarps for a 2 man tent, 100' of 3/8" rope for hanging their hammock, gallon Zip-Locs full of GORP, etc.

I weigh in at 185. You'd think that some of the scouts could get their pack weights lower than mine, but it hasn't happened yet. I'm not sure whether that makes me sad or happy. To tell the truth I keep hoping to lose.

Anyway, my "big" items are:

Pack: GVP G4
Bag: WM Highlite
Shelter: Hammock I picked up on sale at Cabelas, home made silnylon tarp.
Kitchen: Homemade stove (pepsi can, cat food, penny ... what can I say. I like making stoves lol), homemade pot stand (hardware cloth and aluminum foil), titanium mug, plastic spoon
Rain gear: Dri Ducks

I shelled out some serious bucks to save a few pounds on the bag but everything else is pretty cheap.

Although I agree pack weight is important in backpacking, I see something seriously wrong with your thinking. Obsession with fragile ultralight gear is for consumers, NOT Boy Scouts. Nor, really, backpackers for that matter. Just get them out there on the trail, teach them what they do and don't need and the consequences of bringing things they don't need and you'll have done your job. No need to confuse them with ultralight elitism!

[Peaks]

I am not sure I understand the Philmont clothing requirement other than not sleeping in the clothes you cook in, which is a very good idea in that area. Bears have been a big problem, especially during dry years.

First, clothing is light (relatively).

The Philmont requirement is don't sleep in the clothes you wear during day, and no day clothes in your tent. But you can cook, eat, hike, etc in your day clothes. Now, sleep clothes are gym shorts and a T-shirt. Not a big deal.

The third set of clothes is for "wear one, carry one." So, if your usual day wear is T-shirt and shorts, then pack a second set. Not a bad idea when you are on a 10 day trip.

[Tin Man]

First, clothing is light (relatively).

The Philmont requirement is don't sleep in the clothes you wear during day, and no day clothes in your tent. But you can cook, eat, hike, etc in your day clothes. Now, sleep clothes are gym shorts and a T-shirt. Not a big deal.

The third set of clothes is for "wear one, carry one." So, if your usual day wear is T-shirt and shorts, then pack a second set. Not a bad idea when you are on a 10 day trip.

That makes sense. The way it was originally posted made it sound like you had to have separate clothes for each task - hiking, cooking, sleeping.

[Camping Dave]

When people get partial information and make assumptions about other's motives, it's generally true that they project their own personalities onto the other. So I thought I should say:

Yes, Maple, as a matter of fact I taught Cub Scouts and Boy Scout how to make cat stoves and paid for all the materials out of my own pocket. We're practicing cooking skill at tonight's meeting; I paid for all the food out of my own pocket. Thanks for pointing out my faults via personal email by the way.

Buzzard, actually, I carry more gear than the scouts: my personal gear and also some troop gear. And, as a result of this philosophy you deem so horribly expensive and unfair, some scouts use $15 hammocks and $5 tarps instead of $100 tents, or sneakers instead of boots, and use gear I carried for them.

Gaiter, I'm totally in the dark about why you see something seriously wrong and elitist about challenging Scouts to reduce their pack weight.

You know, it's really impossible to fully encapsulate every idea / experience / interaction in an two minute internet posting. I challenge you three to provide helpful comments and advice in the future.

[Dirtygaiters]

Gaiter, I'm totally in the dark about why you see something seriously wrong and elitist about challenging Scouts to reduce their pack weight.

Because a major part of reducing pack weight is shopping and shopping isn't fun if you don't have a lot of money or would rather be on the trail than in front of a computer screen reading the latest SUL blogs and searching for websites that sell UL gear that will require babying. Kids just want to get out there and have fun, even be rough on their gear. Scouts in particular get a kick out of bringing things on trips that they don't need, because it's fun sometimes. It's part of the fun of being in Scouts to carry a too-heavy pack, and really, if you want them to learn the real value of ultralight backpacking, they need to learn from trial and error how the more weight that goes into a backpack can affect their experience. Besides, kids are tough and are actually able to carry 50% of their body weight on their backs.

[jesse]

kids are tough and are actually able to carry 50% of their body weight on their backs.

really, really, really really, really bad idea.

[tlbj6142]

Because a major part of reducing pack weight is shopping and shopping isn't fun if you don't have a lot of money

You don't have to spend a lot of money. Maybe if you want to get down below 8-10# base weight. But a 12#-15# base weight can be accomplished with little money.

Though if you make it a contest with prizes, you give those that can spend more of an advantage than those that cannot. Maybe you need to set a spending limit? Or a minimum weight floor. Any one whose base weight is below 15# "wins". That way those that are below 10# and spent $700 don't get anything more than those that spent $150 at the thrift store and came in at 14#.

[Big Chuck]

I am a scoutmaster and this past winter we went on a 2 night 20-miler in the Sipsey Wilderness in Alabama. We had a similar problem with parents packing too much for the scouts to carry. I learned alot form this outing. We stopped short of our original goal and made a base camp and hiked out and back instead of a thru hike as planned. This was due in large part to the weight of some of the boys' packs. This was an extremely cold outing for Alabama (16 degree nights) so I understood some of the parents went overboard on warm clothing and such, but much of the items packed were overkill. We will definitely be having a parent meeting prior to our next hiking trip. By the way, I taught all of the boys in the troop how to make pepsi can stoves that burn denatured alcohol prior to this trip(...a scout is thrifty..). They worked great. Sleeping bag weight will always be an issue in my troop due to the fact that most of my boys' parents cannot afford the high-dollar light bags. Our boys split up the tent carrying, one carried poles and rainfly while the other carried tent and stakes for a two-man tent. We will continue to try new things to reduce weight so we can hike further in the future. Thanks for posting on this forum. Many of these postings were useful to me.

[Dirtygaiters]

really, really, really really, really bad idea.

I'm really really convinced you're over 40 and don't hang around with a lot of young boys under 20 if you say this so adamantly.