Boy Scouts

[steve hiker]

There’s more to it than just hogging the shelters. The first night was at Carter Gap Shelter, where the old shelter is still standing, so I had space in the old one and didn’t mind them taking the new shelter. I simply walked up and asked -- is there another shelter here, and they said about 20 feet down the trail by the water. That’s all. We didn’t say anything else. The next morning after sleeping in late, they left before me and I went over to the new shelter to read the register. They started their entry by saying this strange man walked up last night and went over to "that old crap hole of a shelter" built in 1959, our shelter was built in 1998.

So in addition to putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say, including a "quote" with profanity that I didn’t use, they were bragging about their shelter being newer than mine in the same breath. Also by putting this in the register which I assume the teenage and preteen scouts read, they were teaching them to use profanity and to lie. I’m certain the entry was made by one of the 2 adult leaders, since he discussed the various years of experience of the 7 teenage and preteen scouts and named them.

But again my main point is, large groups of Scouts should not be using AT shelters. They could have split their group up into two, one starting at the south end of their hike and one at the north, so there would be space for solo hikers. Or they simply could limit the size of their groups if they intend to use the shelters.

[rickb]

I don't see why a solo hiker has more claim on a shelter than any individual-- whether he be part of a group or not.

Oh wait, he doesn't.

[Peaks]

I don't see why a solo hiker has more claim on a shelter than any individual-- whether he be part of a group or not.

Oh wait, he doesn't.

Rick,

Groups should not monopolize a shelter. If are with a group, be it Scouts or a church group, or another youth group, then carry and use your own shelter.

Likewise, a solo hiker should not monopolize a shelter either. Share it with others who come along.

If Scouts are monopolizing a shelter, it's because their leaders don't know any better. But, as someone else posted, they always bring along too much food and are usually very generous about sharing.

One other point: Leave No Trace advocates group size of 10 or less. Is Scouts are educated and observing LNT, then they keep the group size to 10 or less.

[rickb]

Peaks,

Everyone should carry thier own shelter, IMHO. I would have no respect for any scout group that wa not prepared to tent. Likewise, I would have no respect for an experienced long-distance hker who was not prepared with his own shelter.

There is something magical about AT shelters. I see no reason why INDIVIDUALS (because even kids are individuals) who happen to be out with their Scout group should not enjoy this experience.

Fact is, these kids will probably be using AT shelters for a night or two-- far less than than your typical thru hiker.

I just don't buy the idea that a Scout group who happens upon an empty AT shelter has no right to it. Of course they should not hold any special claim on empty spaces, and of course they should abide by the customary courtesies.

Again, 6 or 8 scouts remain 6 or 8 individuals-- each with his own stories to tell. One of the things they might talk about is meeting a thru hiker. An experience that they would not have if they were camped out by themselves.

First come, first served. I know, I know-- good leaders want to set an example about offering "the best" for others. I can respect that way of thinking. But I still don't buy it in this case. Its not like they would be giving up space for a Search and Rescue team, or such. Just other individuals. Like each of thier kids.

RIck B

[screwysquirrel]

They should tear down all the shelters along the AT and use the areas for tenting pads. Also, they should take down all the shelters in the GSMNP and reroute the AT out of there, as to protect the fragile enviornment for the future.

[Blue Jay]

They should tear down all the shelters along the AT and use the areas for tenting pads. Also, they should take down all the shelters in the GSMNP and reroute the AT out of there, as to protect the fragile enviornment for the future.

Why stop there. Tear down all the houses on the eastern seaboard and use the area for launching pads. Also reroute the AT up the interstates.

[RockyTrail]

...They could have split their group up into two, one starting at the south end of their hike and one at the north, so there would be space for solo hikers....

JJ:
Sorry to hear about the problem, but how do you know they didn't split up into two crews, one NOBO and one SOBO? Only a group of 7, so maybe they did; I think it's commonly done for shuttle reasons. (just wondering)

[Peaks]

Rick,

I don't know if we are saying the same thing or not, but I'll agree with your post.

Peace.

[PecosBackpacker]

Eagle Scout, Class of 2003. The behavior of Boy Scouts really comes down to the adult leadership within the troop. I know troops that have very loose rules and the scouts are out of control. It does irritate me but then I have to remember back when I was their age just learning about everything. I have also known troops with very involved leadership and more discipline. Please don't put a negative label on all Boy Scouts just because of one bad experience.

[Bolo]

Eagle Scout, Class of 2003. The behavior of Boy Scouts really comes down to the adult leadership within the troop.

You are exactly right! And congratulations to you on making Eagle!

Bolo
(current ASM)

[deeddawg]

I agree 110% with PecosBackpacker and will go one step further.

Speaking rhetorically & generally, who here takes any sort of active role in terms of offering their knowledge and skills to youth or adult leaders of ANY group? Nobody is born knowing proper outdoor etiquette, LNT principles, etc. Everyone, youth and adults included, must learn these from someone.

"Giving back to the trail" is a lot more than writing a check to the ATC every year. Get involved, volunteer your time, pass along your skills & knowledge.

Unfortunately, most find it easier to just complain on a BBS somewhere instead of doing anything to help.

[BlackCloud]

They should tear down all the shelters along the AT and use the areas for tenting pads. Also, they should take down all the shelters in the GSMNP and reroute the AT out of there, as to protect the fragile enviornment for the future.

Protect it for whom? If no one can see it, you'll never have political support to continue protection. This argument is as old as the earliest National Parks. We still have a strong National Park system b/c your argument has been largely rejected (yet partially reborn w/ the movement twds vast wilderness areas).

As for the scouts, it comes down to the adults, period. The scouting movement, like all other semi-social groups, can only be a reflection of the society which make up its membership. You want more disciplined 13 year olds in the woods? Then support discipline in the public schools; better yet, be sure to discipline your own kids once in a while - it's good for everyone.

I'm sick of you baby boomers wanting to be your kids' best friends.......

And I'm not old & grumpy, I'm 28 & HATE nasty boy scouts (& I'm an EAGLE).

[Footslogger]

As for the scouts, it comes down to the adults, period. The scouting movement, like all other semi-social groups, can only be a reflection of the society which make up its membership. You want more disciplined 13 year olds in the woods? Then support discipline in the public schools; better yet, be sure to discipline your own kids once in a while - it's good for everyone.

I'm sick of you baby boomers wanting to be your kids' best friends.......

And I'm not old & grumpy, I'm 28 & HATE nasty boy scouts (& I'm an EAGLE).

===============================
Well ...I'm 55 (and therefore a baby-boomer), I was an ASM for 11 and I made it to Eagle as a youth scout. I think it's interesting to hear someone in their 20's express a need for discipline among school age youth and scouts. I TOTALLY AGREE WITH IT ...I'm just surprized to hear it coming from someone of that age group. I raised 2 kids, who are now in their late 20's, and I witnessed first hand, a gradual (to near total) decline in the overall acceptance of discipline of a technique in working with young folks (in and out of scouting). Guess you might as well hate me because I did aspire to be a parent AND a friend to my kids ...and I still do.

But yeah ...the system is broken. As an ASM over those years I watched one Boy Scout troop be turned into a "drop off service" by many (not all)parents. I witnessed first hand a number of young guys who would engage in what you might call "nasty" behavior when I took them out on a hike, mainly to get attention (negative or positive) that they weren't getting at home. Any attempt to discipline those boys was met with grief and complaints from their parents once we got home.

I hung in there for years because I believe in the scouting movement and thoroughly enjoyed working with the boys and the parents who supported the adult leaders in their efforts to provide the boys with a solid and constructive experience. That said though ...I grew weary after all those years and moved away from scouting. Besides, I truly believe that the boys in general tend to relate to and cooperate with the younger adult leaders. And for the record, I never liked the nasty boy scouts either. Over my years as an ASM though, I did have the good fortune to play a small part in the turnaround of many of those nasty ones into fairly decent and respectfull individuals. That will always be a great source of personal satisfaction in return for my investment.

'Slogger
AT 2003

[steve hiker]

So much for Boy Scouts tenting away from shelters. I just went hiking for a few days on the North Carolina AT and a group of 9 scouts hogged the 8-person shelters 2 nights in a row. I shoulda known better after the first night and beaten them to the next shelter, but got a late start and sure enough, they were there again like a gang of thugs with a NO VACANCY sign hung out. I don't think boy scout groups should be allowed to use AT shelters.

Ugh. I think I'll stay west of the Mississippi.

[The Solemates]

Dont even get me started....

[brian]

I myself just completed my Eagle Project, and will be going for my Eagle Board of Review (the final horah) in two weeks. My brother was a class of '01 Eagle, and I will have my two friends joining me for my eagle court of honor.

Getting that out of the way, i beleive that the general thought for many people is that ultimately the leaders are responsible for the kids. Three years ago, my troop was a "standard" troop; we took short backpacking trips, often making 2-3 trips to carry all of the stoves, water bottles, propane lights (and propane tanks).

Then, partly being sick of carrying 40lbs on my back and 20lbs in my hands, we made the difficult transition to a lightweight troop. We got some nice North Face 2 person tents, junked all of the propane stoves in exchange for MSR stoves, and most importantly, began to forbid certain items from packs. Cotton was our #1 target. Some parents were kind of suprised when we said "no cotton hoodies, cotton socks, or jeans. If we find these, we will drop your kid off on the way to the trailhead". But even a $10 pair of nylon pants, and a pair or two of rag socks made a big difference in the attitude of the older scouts and leaders.

With the change in gear that we were carrying, it made a huge impact in what the scouts were doing during the day, and into the night. A five mile hike in jeans and damp cotton socks can be a big turnoff for a kid, but making it a little more comfortable made getting kids out of a campsite even easier. At night, kids would rather sleep in a tent than a shelter. While not all trips are the same, there was a certain "coolness" factor in sleeping in a nice tent.

Another big contribution that our troop made to the general well being of the outdoors was splitting up the troop for a trip. As Peaks said, LNT should mean splitting up a group to less than 10. Our troop has been able to set up hikes where there is a "base camp" hike, which may be 1-2 miles into a campsite with a day hike, perfect for those who would rather not do a more difficult backpacking hike (usually 5-8 miles with packs). The older scouts, more usually doing the longer hike, dont allienate the younger scouts, who prefer to do a day hike. At night, the groups convene for a campfire, and the trips are usually planned to avoid popular destinations for lots of people.

Getting new scouts involved with things they want to be interested in (our troop now has 11 hammockers), helps to foster a sense of responsibility and maturity. While no troop is ever perfect, having a good base of leaders and older scouts certainly helps to keep it in control.

Brian
Future Thru Hiker 2013

[Peaks]

One of the things that impressed me most about Philmont is that the trails and campsites do not show the abuse like the AT does. About 20,000 scouts go there every year, and the back country is pristine. I seldom found sites so pristine along the AT. Scouts can do things right when properly trained.

[Footslogger]

One of the things that impressed me most about Philmont is that the trails and campsites do not show the abuse like the AT does. About 20,000 scouts go there every year, and the back country is pristine. I seldom found sites so pristine along the AT. Scouts can do things right when properly trained.

=======================
I couldn't agree more. It's rare that you see even a small fleck of paper on the ground out there. Philmont enforces a strict LNT policy. It is not optional or voluntary. Not sure that type of influence or control could ever be exerted on the AT.

For all the scouts may do wrong ...that's one thing they seem to have gotten right.

'Slogger
AT 2003
Philmont '95, '97, '99

[SiuWonfung]

Philmont! sweet, i've been there, because, believe it or not, i am a boy scout (and as of November, an Eagle Scout). Philmont was Super Duper cool!

anyways, i heard on the trail oneday about this group of scouts who decided to pry huge, car sized boulers off the top of a cliff to watch them crash down the side of a mountain, exploding trees and anything that was in their paths. Haha! man that sounds fun..
but seriously, they were being very bad.

true story, i promise.

[PecosBackpacker]

You are exactly right! And congratulations to you on making Eagle!

Bolo
(current ASM)

Thank you. I appreciate your praises.