The ATC Compliance With Americans With Disabilities Act, Part Two

[The Weasel]

I hope Rock will understand that I think this is an important topic and not close it.

I'm disabled. I am about 80% deaf in one ear, and 60% in my other. Hearing aids don't help much, since the form of deafness makes understanding sounds hard. I've represented other disabled people, and among my life achievements, equal to my 600 miles of AT thru hiking is bringing a major class action in my own name against film studios to force greater closed captioning. In a word, I identify with not just the AT, but with people who have disabilities.

Those of you who think that the AT - or other trails - are not for the physically handicapped are wrong, and that extends to "wheelchair backpacking" as well as those who use wheelchairs but can also function to some extent using braces or crutches. Wheelchairs are light enough and strong enough that they can stand up to the stress of distance hiking, as marathons have shown on city streets. I've seen wheelchair users on strenuous trails, and chatted with a few. Yeah, it's not easy. They are in superb physical condition, usually, and have upper body strength that is phenomenal.

And yeah, the women take a pee, folks, and the wheelchair-bound men and women both like to get on a toilet seat in a privy to take a dump. It's a little harder for them to do either without a privy, as you might imagine (if you were a bit more sensitive and bothered to think about it).

It took me about 8 seconds using Google to search for "wheelchair backpacking" and find this lady's site, http://perchesinthesoul.com/ (read "about me" under her picture, and what I am sure is her post in another forum, "Doctors With Disabilities" (read down a bit to "WakeElf"'s post, which is third down). http://www.disapedia.com/messageboar...f9ca2fd1dc7749 Lonely Planet's site has a Blog about Walt Balenovich, who has written "Backpacking in a Blue Chair". http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blogs/co...try/blue_chair

I know it sounds counter-intuitive that the handicapped want to backpack (and can!) but we're really are like you in one way: We have minds, with feelings and goals and hopes, and, in some cases, those minds and feelings and goals include remote trails. More than you might realize, we're able to do things that you don't think we can. But while nobody - including the disabled - suggests putting a ramp up Albert Mountain or such places, it's not harming any of you to put a modest ramp on a shelter privy.

The Weasel

[jersey joe]

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with putting a ramp on a privy, but, weasel, will you concede that making the entire AT wheel chair accessable is not only nearly impossible but should not be done? I mean there are limits to accomodating the handicap no?

[The Weasel]

Joe ---

It's not "nearly impossible." It's impossible. And no one has suggested it. But it's always something like that when the disabled want a modest improvement; someone then says, "But we can't make everything that way," and uses that as a reason to mock, and defeat, the real proposals. All the law requires is "reasonable" accommodation for the handicap; but all too often, that is used as an "escape phrase" to say that "no accommodation" is possible.

Yeah, when someone re-routes a trail that was accessible to he handicapped, they should think about whether the rerouting is necessary, or perhaps keeping the old route as an acceptable alternative.

TW

[Alligator]

This link offers some discussion, Q&A, and photos concerning the ADA Accessibility Guidelines. It comes from the TN Dept. of Environment and Conservation.

[Foyt20]

Who should pay for the modifications?

[Alligator]

Who should pay for the modifications?

The public should pay for it.

[Lilred]

Who should pay for the modifications?

All taxpayers of course. Taxpayers pay for the trail for people without disabilities, it only makes sense that tax dollars cover accessability as well. After all, disabled people are taxpayers too, and their taxes paid for the AT as well. Where there is a possible access with a wheelchair, there ought to be provisions at shelters and privies. I've seen wheelchairs that can climb stairs, won't be long that they can get up mountains, if not already.

[orangebug]

Reasonable accommodations are paid for by government when the facilities are public. Zoning / building codes determine reasonable accommodation changes when privately owned facilities are modified/constructed.

There is always a price to pay. Prior to ADA (and prior Rehabilitation Act), that price was borne exclusively by the disabled - to the point of losing access to even the city sidewalks.

It makes little sense to require full accommodation for shelters/privies in backcountry that aren't accessable except by hiking community elite. There are other areas for reasonable accommodation that are far higher priority. Given the numbers of disabled vets entering our society after this very expensive war, we will face many challenges setting priorities.

[Lone Wolf]

some years back the AMC added on new construction to Galehead hut. they had to put in ramps and all that other crap to meet ADA standards. totally ridiculous if you've ever hiked in that area. no wheelchair bound person would even think of trying to get there.

[Alligator]

some years back the AMC added on new construction to Galehead hut. they had to put in ramps and all that other crap to meet ADA standards. totally ridiculous if you've ever hiked in that area. no wheelchair bound person would even think of trying to get there.

One misconception of ramps is that they only benefit people in wheelchairs. There are other types of disabilities that ramps help, missing limbs for instance. I'll bet a Marine with a missing leg could make it up there.

[Foyt20]

One misconception of ramps is that they only benefit people in wheelchairs. There are other types of disabilities that ramps help, missing limbs for instance. I'll bet a Marine with a missing leg could make it up there.

Yes, and if he made it up there, he probably wouldnt need a ramp to get into the shelter.

Btw, i am more than happy to help or assist anyone with a disablility. Its just that i think that people need to realize what their limitations are and stop doing something just becasuse it makes everyone "equal". Equality is an impossible goal, and an idea that was based more on conditions than on actual circumstances. there comes a time that people need to wake up, and realize that maybe there are things that we just cant do.

I cant run a marathon, so i say well, thats something i cant do. I dont Sue the sponsor or the organizer of the marathon to shorten it. I tried to be a professional firefighter, but i could not pass the physical test. I didnt sue for the department of personell to make the test easier, i realised it and moved on with my life.

[KnowledgeEngine]

When I read this thread I remembered something I had seen recently Dean Kamen's IBOT standing wheelchair I understand those who can not get purchasing assistance probably cannot afford to purchase this.

Something novel/intresting however would be to rent them at town access, much like many large cities rent bikes for greenway use.

[Alligator]

Yes, and if he made it up there, he probably wouldnt need a ramp to get into the shelter.
...

He doesn't need the shelter either. It's just a convenience to use that he/she paid for. Since it gets paid for, as Lilred quite eloquently pointed out, in part by the disabled, they have a right to determine how it is constructed.

Further Foyt, the guidelines for trails detailed are a mix of input from various groups. They are a compromise regarding reasonable accomodation.

[johnny quest]

Those of you who think that the AT - or other trails - are not for the physically handicapped are wrong

the AT...like most things in life, are for anyone who can do it. healthy he-men have failed thru-hikes, while at least one blind-man succeeded. i think most people here on whiteblaze understand that and dont see the trail as belonging to only the young or superfit.
you can sue every state the AT goes thru, you can shave off the hills and pave the trail, blast thru the rock and put ramps over creeks. you might end up with something everyone can experience, but what would that experience be?

[Alligator]

the AT...like most things in life, are for anyone who can do it. healthy he-men have failed thru-hikes, while at least one blind-man succeeded. i think most people here on whiteblaze understand that and dont see the trail as belonging to only the young or superfit.
you can sue every state the AT goes thru, you can shave off the hills and pave the trail, blast thru the rock and put ramps over creeks. you might end up with something everyone can experience, but what would that experience be?

From my link in post 4.
Will we have to bring existing trails up to ADA standards?
No. The proposed accessibility guidelines require all newly constructed and altered portions of existing trails connected to accessible trails or designated trailheads to comply.

Here's a more extensive page on the final report.

[jniehof]

some years back the AMC added on new construction to Galehead hut. they had to put in ramps and all that other crap to meet ADA standards. totally ridiculous if you've ever hiked in that area. no wheelchair bound person would even think of trying to get there.

Except for the ones that did. One group climbed Galehead in three days, staying at Galehead hut both days. There was also (I forget if it was before or after) an ascent of Lafayette, staying at Greenleaf. It was written up in Appalachia--roughly 2000-2001 timeframe.

[The Weasel]

Yes, and if he made it up there, he probably wouldnt need a ramp to get into the shelter.

Btw, i am more than happy to help or assist anyone with a disablility. Its just that i think that people need to realize what their limitations are and stop doing something just becasuse it makes everyone "equal". Equality is an impossible goal, and an idea that was based more on conditions than on actual circumstances. there comes a time that people need to wake up, and realize that maybe there are things that we just cant do.

I cant run a marathon, so i say well, thats something i cant do. I dont Sue the sponsor or the organizer of the marathon to shorten it. I tried to be a professional firefighter, but i could not pass the physical test. I didnt sue for the department of personell to make the test easier, i realised it and moved on with my life.

Well, Foyt, did it ever dawn on you that maybe we don't want your help? Maybe we just want things that present hurdles for us - but not for you - that aren't necessary ones to be reduced, so that ones that are necessary can be left to us. There are people in wheelchairs who do technical mountain climbing, and more. But maybe we are just a little tired of patronizing from people like you who then say, "But I don't want to see the public pay for eliminating curb ramps...or privy steps."

If you couldn't run a marathon, it's because of your lack of conditioning. Every marathon now has wheelchair sections, blind people run them, and pretty much every other handicap; if Steven Hawking paid the entry fee to an "open" marathon, he'd be allowed in. As for being a pro firefighter, if you were excluded because of a physical limitation that can't be overcome, you would have no lawsuit; if it was because of your own lack of conditioning, look in the mirror.

I don't ask for "equality" since neither you nor any government can give me my hearing back. I do ask for equality of opportunity, and for government (and people like you) to realize that actions of yours that make it harder for the handicapped should be avoided.

TW

[johnny quest]

what action is he or anyone else taking to make it harder for the handicapped? is lack of taking action you want, action?

[sofaking]

weasel, i have very diminished hearing also. i don't remember the %, but the one hearing aid is basically useless and the other just sort of helps me get by...i don't consider myself disabled, just inconvenienced- and i don't wear my hearing aids when i go out on the trail because they're such a p.i.t.a to keep up with/dry/clean...so am i understanding you correctly that i am in some way being dis-serviced by the a.t.c. or society in general? maybe i need to move on out to cali and get represented...

[Alligator]

...In a word, I identify with not just the AT, but with people who have disabilities.

...

The Weasel didn't say his disability creates a problem for him in regard to the AT. He was explaining the motivation behind his interest in this issue.