Stationary/camp wear: UnderArmor or Smartwool base layer.

[JAK]

Places like Mardens in Maine, and LLBean factory outlet often have 100% wool stuff as cheap as $20 a piece. Places like Winners often carry outdoor stuff also. My wife got a WM 900 Flight Series down jacket there, way cheap. Hit and miss though. You only need so much clothing though, so buy good stuff that fits you and your system, but don't pay too much if you don't have to. Good wool lasts a long time. Same with good fleece. You learn to tell the difference by feel, not by brand names.

[Zzzzdyd]

Here is the why.... I had an rei kilo zero a few months ago and camped in the fall and woke up with feathers EVERYWHERE. On me, all over my tent, in my backpack. No seam had really failed, the down just came through the lining. This is the by far not my first such experience with down filled clothing. My winter jacket, my vest, some camp shoes, they all had this problem. I'd had enough.

I was going synthetic and there was this fantastic REALLY LIGHT bag that packed down SMALL at my local gear store so cheap, I couldnt pass it up. It's also real warm for it's rating.

Then it dawned on me. I'm carrying all this clothing anyway for camp use, why not use it to boost my sleeping comfort and stay lightweight.

So to answer all the comments about down jackets and bags....I dont like down. It's fragile, expensive and it always comes out of whatever container it's stuffed into and makes a mess.

I have had nothing but great experiences using down bags and jackets for

years and years. Sorry yours went so bad in such a messy way.

You might want to consider taking extra fuel for "hotrocks" as I believe if it

gets down into the teens F degrees, that unless your a real warm sleeper

you will be needing to do some. Just a suggestion, hopefully helpful.

[JAK]

The thing about down is that it doesn't really pay off until you get thick, and you still need some other layers so you never need something that thick except for a sleeping bag or quilt. It might be possible to eliminate a wind layer if you carry a down layer, but you still need a rain layer, and in heavy cold rain you really shouldn't wear the down layer even under a heavy rain layer, which again leaves you with thicker other layers and less need for a thick down layer. What's good enough for cold wet conditions is usually good enough for colder dry conditions. Down is really for sleeping bags and quilts, unless you are going arctic or alpine. For day trips and driving around a down jacket is awesome, but for extended backpacking trips I don't think it really works into a system unless you are someplace it is consistently very cold and dry. That ain't the Maine Woods. Whites in winter? Maybe. I don't know.

[JAK]

It would be nice to be able to buy light weight wool hiking pants, or breeches.
The stuff at L.L.Beans for hunting is way too heavy and clumsy, and way to pricey.

Does anyone may a decent pair of light weight wool hiking pants, or breeches? I would like something in a course tweed, good for wet weather but not to tightly woven. They don't need to be wind proof. My goal would be to wear them all of the time, and then add another layer under and a wind layer over if it got really cold. For the rest of the time I would like them to breath though, and be a water resistant tweed. I wouldn't want them full length either. Somewhere below the knee, with wool knee socks to make up the difference when needed. Breeks basically. Wind pants and long underwear would be full length though. Anyone still make such a thing? I've asked before. I saw one pair but they were very expensive and not my size, and had some extra in place that was not really neccessary though I could have lived with it. Some wool dress pants could be made to work, except the liners and pockets are wrong for hiking. I will keep looking, or perhaps have something made. Meanwhile wool underwear and light brushed nylon hiking pants are fine.

[hnryclay]

JAK, have you tried the Army Issue wool trousers? I see them often online on Surplus stores. Generally I don't use military surplus gear because of the weight/size, however I think I might pick up a pair just to try them out.

[JAK]

Haven't tried those yet. I would like to try a pair if I come across a pair that are light enough. I would imagine they varied in weight. I doubt a lighter pair like I have in mind would have survived this long, unless they are still made someplace. I don't think they need to be that heavy. A course tweed, but loosely woven. The military and hunting types were fairly wind proof. I think some you could even inflate as life preservers. Saw that in a RCMP training film once. My idea is to add a wind layer over top once needed, but to be reasonably cool and breathable otherwise.

[crazypete]

If you learn to adapt your clothing for each season I think you'll find yourself carrying less weight and actually being warmer year-round.

I find myself warmer year round from huffing anf puffing lugging all that around.

It's not that bad actually. Trail weight with tent/bag/thermarest/all those clothes/raingear/a well stocked loose item bag/camera gear/1 ltr water/4 days food/cart. stove/filter/atmos65 pack etc...

= 33 pounds

Not that shabby at all.

[crazypete]

For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

I've come to accept that you get what you pay for. If you want the lightweight, compressible and effective high tech stuff, you have to shell out the leafy greens.

Just bite the bullet and get them. These items usually last for a long time so consider it more of an investment in your long term comfort than a single purchase. What can be more important than that? $70 isnt worth what it used to be.

[JAK]

Nah. It can be fun to bargain shop, and some clothing systems are better suited than others to the frugally minded. Depends on where you live also, what is useful, and what can be found cheap. I will pay near top dollar for a few key items though. I paid $100 for my Jam2 pack. Could have made one I guess, but got tired of putting it off. The other is a few hand knit woolen goods. I can wait and find light merino sweaters and skin layers and wind layers and poncho tarp very cheap, like $20 on average, but for a top quality hand knit medium sweater made locally with local wool, yeah I'll pay the old ladies what their worth. OK, maybe I'll try and chisel them down to $100 for a wool sweater, or $20 for a really nice hat, or mitts, or socks. I have paid more though. I don't mind paying a little for some Alpaca or Llama stuff from South America, as long as its fair trade stuff, and top quality. Saw a really nice poncho where I got my hat, the real deal. Too pricey for me, but it would be nice to try hiking in and sleeping under a real poncho someday. The one other thing I might pay near top dollar for someday is a top quaility down sleeping bag, but I'm still getting by without one, and my total weight is not all that much, even in winter, so it would have to be just the right one and a really sweet deal. Yeah, I'm a dirt bag, but I'm a warm enough dirt bag.

[crazypete]

You can find down gear cheap if you look hard enough.
I am NOT very easy on my down products. I don't baby them and I have yet to have one fail on me. I don't understand why you are having such problems.

geek

I dont either. I've never done anything stupid like machine wash my bag or leave it compressed. I've read all the literature, I know the procedure. And, in defence of the kilo zero, it's a damn good bag with good construction, same as winter coat. But the escape of down seems inenvitable and if the feathers are in my tent, they are not in the bag, helping me keep warm.

[Lyle]

Haven't tried those yet. I would like to try a pair if I come across a pair that are light enough. I would imagine they varied in weight. I doubt a lighter pair like I have in mind would have survived this long, unless they are still made someplace. I don't think they need to be that heavy. A course tweed, but loosely woven. The military and hunting types were fairly wind proof. I think some you could even inflate as life preservers. Saw that in a RCMP training film once. My idea is to add a wind layer over top once needed, but to be reasonably cool and breathable otherwise.

Have you tried Salvation Army or the like? Old wool suit pants work quite well. Don't have any now, but have used them in the past.

[JAK]

Have you tried Salvation Army or the like? Old wool suit pants work quite well. Don't have any now, but have used them in the past.

I do search places like that, and I did find one pair of tweedy wool dress pants that worked great, especially after one washing, but I cut into the wool here and there when I removed some of the lining. They sort of self destructed shortly after that and were a bit oversized anyway. Problem is alot of wool pants have cotton linings and pockets and such. They really need to be all wool.

[Dirtygaiters]

I find myself warmer year round from huffing anf puffing lugging all that around.

It's not that bad actually. Trail weight with tent/bag/thermarest/all those clothes/raingear/a well stocked loose item bag/camera gear/1 ltr water/4 days food/cart. stove/filter/atmos65 pack etc...

= 33 pounds

Not that shabby at all.

I mean more along the lines of having a summer set up like this:
-light sleeping pad, 30 degree bag, short sleeves, fleece vest or pullover for cold nights, and shorts or very lightweight/highly breathable pants
...and a winter set up like this:
-heavy winter pad, 0 degree bag, long sleeve fleece or wool shirt, fleece hat, gloves, winter hiking pants, puffy down jacket, fleece long underwear, insulated camp booties/heavy sleeping socks
^ Just looking at the number and comparable weights of the items in that short list should be a general indication of how you can significantly lighten your load in the summer without compromising your safety (simply by not packing what you won't be using), and how if you keep fleece layers to a minimum in the winter by using down or high-loft synthetics in their place, you can cut down on weight and bulk in the winter as well.

[JAK]

I would say total clothing, not counting shoes, would be as little as 2 pounds in summer down to 50F to as much as 10 pounds in winter down to -30F. There are alot more variables than that, and it depends on the rest of your gear also, but I would say you need about 1 pound of clothing for every 10degF below 70F, as a practical rule of thumb, including the effects of wind and rain and fatigue. As for the rest of the gear, not counting consumables, that might be roughly the same as your clothing weight, so in total perhaps 2 pounds of clothing and gear for every 10degF below 70F. Yeah, you can probably go naked at 70F. Above that you are getting into heat stroke and stuff though, and so in practice you need clothing and gear for both warm and hot conditions when the temperature is as low as 50F. This is just off the top of my head, and depends on personal gear choices and stuff also, and practical considerations like having only 1 or 2 gear choices in certain key areas. I think its a pretty good rule of thumb though, for the type of hiking I do, and just off the top of my head. We can actually get frost any day of the year here, so I really need to start at about 40F, but I'll start at 50F. Notice that most of the variability is in winter alone. Months were -30F is possible might require twice as much gear as trips were the risk is only down to +20F.

Minimal weights, skin out, not counting consumables.
Roughly 50% of this should be clothing, not counting footwear.
Summer down to +50F: 4 pounds
Summer down to +40F: 6 pounds
Spring/Fall dn to +30F: 8 pounds
Spring/Fall dn to 20F: 10 pounds
Winter down to +10F: 12 pounds
Winter down to +-0F: 14 pounds
Winter down to -10F: 16 pounds
Winter down to -20F: 18 pounds
Winter down to -30F: 20 pounds

These are minimal, and in practice I think more buffer is needed in winter,
but that really depends on how deep you are going, and many other factors.

[JAK]

For consumables, it depends mostly on how many calories you are planning and capable of burning each day, less how much body fat calories you are planning and capable of burning each day, plus some additional factoring for extra days due to weather delays and such, which are also more severe in winter. For myself, I like to be active all day summer or winter, but like bring more food in winter and burn more body fat in summer. Perhaps for me a good rule of thumb might be a minimum of 1 pound per day, plus an additional 0.2 pounds per day for every 10 degF the minimal dail temperatue might fall below 20degF.

Usually though I just figure on 1 pound per day in summer, 1.5 pounds per day in spring/fall, and 2 pounds per day in winter. And for total skin out weight, not counting food and water, I am more typically 10 pounds in summer, 15 pounds in spring/fall, and at least 20 pounds midwinter, usually more because I need extra clothing to make up for a less than ideal sleeping bag. I also go with shorter trips in winter with multiple exit points, but I still like to be prepared though, cause its fun to do so if nothing else.

[Texasgirl]

Okay, I need to get busy bargain shopping then! Thanks.

[JAK]

Yeah, and now you can just buy it by the pound. LOL

[crazypete]

I mean more along the lines of having a summer set up like this:
-light sleeping pad, 30 degree bag, short sleeves, fleece vest or pullover for cold nights, and shorts or very lightweight/highly breathable pants
...and a winter set up like this:
-heavy winter pad, 0 degree bag, long sleeve fleece or wool shirt, fleece hat, gloves, winter hiking pants, puffy down jacket, fleece long underwear, insulated camp booties/heavy sleeping socks
^ Just looking at the number and comparable weights of the items in that short list should be a general indication of how you can significantly lighten your load in the summer without compromising your safety (simply by not packing what you won't be using), and how if you keep fleece layers to a minimum in the winter by using down or high-loft synthetics in their place, you can cut down on weight and bulk in the winter as well.

See...for me, instead of light and heavy, I go with light+medium together to equal a heavy. Thats why none of my gear looks really appropriate until you realize it is all worn together. A silk shirt+ 100 wt fleece+ spruce run jacket is enough for even the bitter cold of new england. I toss on my raincoat when it gets windy.

I've done deliberate tests before I headed out with it by dressing up in my layer system on one of the bitter coldest nights last year and putting a patton air ciculator cage fan blowing on me to simulate EXTREME wind chill and sat there for 2 hours and didnt feel cold at all. (that was with under armor).

When I headed out on trail, I got similar good results.

The real beauty here is: the winter kit is exactly the summer kit plus 1 jacket and some under armor + gloves = 2 pounds. I have to carry pants and rain gear anyway. Pretty clever, huh?

[JAK]

That is pretty clever, and it does sometimes work out that way, but it really depends on the climate extremes you are actually comparing. It is certainly the case that if we can carry it in winter we can carry it in summer also. It is not always the case that we need to.

[JAK]

Depends most on how extreme your winter conditions might actually get, and how many days you might actually be out in them if you are forunate enough to really get hammered out there. Also folks that go up peaks in summer and stay below the treeline in extreme winter conditions are likely to get less extremes from summer to winter. For myself, where I do pretty much all my hiking in the woods along the the Fundy coast here, the range of extreme minimum temperature varies from abiut 35F in July, to -35F in January. Using my rule of thumb I would need 3.5 pounds of clothing in July, and 10.5 pounds of clothing in January. In practice I actually carry less than that in July, and more than that in January, probably closer to 3 pounds July and 12 pounds in January. Alot of that is because of the rest of my kit though. Thing is, I use pretty much all my clothing on a daily basis anyway, year round, so I don't mind having alot of stuff to mix and match with. It all gets used eventually, and its pretty much all from bargain shopping.