Stationary/camp wear: UnderArmor or Smartwool base layer.

[Zzzzdyd]

Why would you go from a zero degree bag to a 25 degree bag for "winter"

hiking ?

I would imagine the clothes you would have to carry and use to make up

for the difference in sleeping bag rated temps would outweigh any

advantages of using the 25 degree bag ?

I have, and have used extensively:

1) Smartwool top and bottom.

2) Go-lite C-thru

3) Under-Armour.

I would rate them in the order I put them. Although I like the Under-Armour

best for motorcycling because it allows me and my outer clothes to move

easier about the bike, etc..

In my personal test I did before I did some cold winter canoeing Wool

offered some warmth factor when wet. Polypro and C-thru offered no

warmth until almost totally dry. Although I didn't time it, I believe the

Smartwool also dried faster. But that might be because after my self

induced dip in the cold creek, I took it off, wrung it out the best I could by

hand, put it back on along with my outer layer, and proceeded to make

camp in relative comfort in mid-thirties F temps. I was unable to do this

with Polypro and C-thru. I had to get in the safety tent and shiver awhile.

Don't do these kinds of test alone. Have a safety shelter with plenty of

warm blankets, and hot drinks ready so if your safety Doc thinks your

getting hypothermia treatment is easier and close. Mine was a ex Navy

corpsman so I felt pretty safe doing these just to find out test. Lots of

myths out there and unfortunately too many manufactures that at worst

over-hype and mis-represent their product(s) while not informing us about

what it won't do.

Try finding any unbiased test results and you see why I learned to test it

myself when I can.

I am a big klutz and have managed to get pretty wet in temps well below

freezing, so I know it can happen.

I vote for wool. The best you can afford.

[Wags]

jak i read your post and i can't quite get a grasp on you removing your innermost layer the most frequently. i can hardly imagine walking down a trail in winter and seeing you stripping down to bare skin to throw on your base layer to warm up... can you clear that up for me how that's efficient?

[JAK]

hikingPA,
Good question. Let me explain better.

Firstly, it applies mostly to my top half, so it is no big deal to remove my medium/heavy wool sweater to put a skin layer on underneath. The weight of my sweater depends on the season. Midwinter it can be pretty heavy and still not be too hot on pleasant days when I and active. By keeping it on all the time it never gets wet and cold. By keeping it on it has a chance to dry out when it does get damp from inside or out, and acts as a sort of thermal flywheel between warm activities and cold activities.

Secondly, I don't have to take it off very often to add a skin layer underneath, though it is always very refreshing when I do so. Taking your sweater off in winter and removing or adding a skin layer and then putting the sweater back on is a great way to shed some persperation moisture and invigourate your heat metabolism, and you get alot of the heat back from the sweater which was only off for an instant.

On a long trip in winter there is both course and fine temperature adjustment. Fine adjustment is achieved by such things as adding or removing hat and mitts when active, or throwing on a wind layer or fleece oversweater when stopping for a rest or meal, or before heading out to cross over a windy frozen lake or river. Course adjustment is what you need to do when the weather turns to the extreme for that month. That's when others might put on their down jacket. That is when I strip down and add my skin layer top, and perhaps my wool long underwear also that I might have kept in reserve and for sleeping, and then putting my heavy wool sweater back on again, and all my other layers. This would be in the context of stopping to prepare for a storm, and conserving energy as I move into it and stop early and prepare for it.

By keeping my top skin layer and wool underwear off MOST of the time, I am able to wear a heavier wool sweater all of the time. The total weight is about the same, but I have a more robust system, and more room in my pack.

Below the waist it is a little more conventional. I tend to wear a skin layer all the time, and add the fleece and/or wind pants as needed. Sometimes though I might switch the skin layer for the fleece layer, for different condition and to give the skin layer a break. The wool long underwear is kept for sleeping though, and storms, so I would strip down to put those on. The skin layer I might leave off if I did that. Depends. Hope that helps.

Anyhow, the skin layer top is the last layer I put on, figuratively speaking.

[crazypete]

[quote=Dirtygaiters;714029]To be clear, Under Armour Heat Gear is designed to be worn in hot weather to keep you cool. The fabric is designed to feel cool against the skin and wick all your perspiration away from your skin as fast as possible.

You could revise items 1,2&4 into something like this:
1- Thin merino wool long sleeve (roll sleeves up and unzip the chest when too hot)

For your lower half, I'd second Greentick's call for Army surplus field liners. quote]

I think I had the names backwards for the UA. The stuff for cold weather is the stretchy material with the fuzzy innner liner. Oddly, the description works either way cause I got both!

I might have to get some of those field liners. Apparently they come well recommended. I feel like they would be more multi-use than some insulated pants, which are very single use.

Do you think the merino wool long sleeve would work for summertime, though?

This kit above is designed for 4 seasons. I dont cycle things in and out, I always hike with the full kit. It because, in the whites, the temp can drop really quickly, even in summer and you dont want to get caught atop senor Washington without a winter jacket when a stromfront moves through.

But this is why it seems like I have some summer clothes mixed into my winter gear.

[Jim Adams]

I stopped buying anything but Smartwool since the first time I tried it....it is expensive but in a class by itself.

geek

[crazypete]

What is a Watch Cap?

A toque(?) took? However the canadians say it.

Its the stretchy wool cap that goes over your whole head and covers your ears. My favorite type of headgear.

[crazypete]

Why would you go from a zero degree bag to a 25 degree bag for "winter hiking ?

Here is the why.... I had an rei kilo zero a few months ago and camped in the fall and woke up with feathers EVERYWHERE. On me, all over my tent, in my backpack. No seam had really failed, the down just came through the lining. This is the by far not my first such experience with down filled clothing. My winter jacket, my vest, some camp shoes, they all had this problem. I'd had enough.

I was going synthetic and there was this fantastic REALLY LIGHT bag that packed down SMALL at my local gear store so cheap, I couldnt pass it up. It's also real warm for it's rating.

Then it dawned on me. I'm carrying all this clothing anyway for camp use, why not use it to boost my sleeping comfort and stay lightweight.

So to answer all the comments about down jackets and bags....I dont like down. It's fragile, expensive and it always comes out of whatever container it's stuffed into and makes a mess.

[crazypete]

hikingPA,

Anyhow, the skin layer top is the last layer I put on, figuratively speaking.

Yeah, same here.....cause if you heat up, you have to strip down to almost naked right there on the trail to take it off. Not for the bashful.

There's a lot of talk about merino wool layers and how warm they are. Hmmmmm, maybe you guys have different MW base layers than me. My UA seems a lot warmer. I think I have the microweight kind of MW that you can see through if you hold up.

Do you have any links to the "right kind" of smartwool/merino base layers?

[JAK]

I don't find much difference in the effectiveness of the lightest insulating skin layers, for the same weight, but I think in cold wet winter conditions you should include wool in your mix. If you don't or can't wear wool sweaters, but wear a combination of polyester fleece middle layers, and down jackets for colder stuff, then I think you should opt for a wool skin layer to add some robustness to your system for the cold wet stuff.

I think there are different wools for different purposes. For a wool skin layer, you need to go with merino, and the thinner the layer the finer the merino needs to be. However, for a light sweaters I think a shetland type virgin wool can be as effective as a merino as part of a total system, and for medium sweaters there are many good choices. The finer wools like merino and alpaca and some shetland fleeces can be warmer in dry conditions, but more prone to holding water and felting in cold wet conditions. I like a medium alpaca sweater for shear warmth in cold dry conditions, but a courser long fibered and well oiled hand knit sheeps wool like a british jersey type or an icelandic fleece type fisherman or ski sweater for cold wet conditions, and for mitts. They are warmer when wet, almost as warm when dry, when it is less important to be so, and generally more resistant to holes and felting. You really notice the difference between wet weather wools and dry weather wools when it comes to wearing mitts and gloves. For a heavy sweater, which I might wear in mid-winter, I like the same choices as for medium sweaters but hand knit with a thicker yarn.

In general I think people are far too willing to pay big bucks for machine made merino wool and smart wool sweaters, far too cheap and ignorant when it comes to buying something hand knit with truly superios wool from local mills here in Maine, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island. Smart wool is just a brand name. Merino is just a species. Extra fine says nothing of fibre length and crimps per inch and all that, or how the yarn is put together and how the garment is knit. You but some wool from Briggs and Little and you know exactly what your getting, and you wear a pair of wool mitts or ski socks made from the same and then you will know what real quality wool is.

Still, any wool of any type is good, as long as you don't pay too much for it unless its excellent. Some is better thin, some is better thick, and some is better wet, and some is better dry, but people generally pay way too much for mass produced brand names just because it says 'merino' or 'smart' or just because its pricey.

[JAK]

A toque(?) took? However the canadians say it.

Its the stretchy wool cap that goes over your whole head and covers your ears. My favorite type of headgear.

I think there is a difference between a watch cap and a toque.

A real watch cap has that rounded military look to it, generally folded up once unless brought down about the ears, and is usually olive or navy, and though machine knit rather than hand knit they are an efficent crowned shape generally made of a good quality fishermans jersey type wool, which is a strong wool very suitable for cold wet conditions.

A toque in the modern sense is similar but a more rectangular and less efficient shape rather than crowned like a watch cap, and not neccessarily folded up. Though thats an option they are not as good at staying folded up. Sometimes has a pompom and sometimes extra long for fashion. Generally speaking they are double knit and machine made of an inferior wool or acrylic, and are not so good for cold wet conditions. They typically have hockey emblems on them, which brings up the most important point: Leafs suck. Go Habs Go.

I recently aquired an alpaca wool hat, with the ear flaps. Hand knit, excellent wool, very good fit, and none of those stupic fleece liners sewn in.

What's up with wool with fleece liners? If you want a light fleece beanie you can always get one and wear it separately for summer or not so cold conditions, but it really adds nothing to wool. If anything they keep each other from drying properly. Best to keep the fleece and wool as separate layers and mix and match them as you see fit. Also, if anything, fleece would go over the wool, not under.

[trouthunter]

This is what I use for winter:

5 deg. Mnt Hardware bag

I pick two of the following base layers for each trip.
Icebreaker merino (new, only used twice but I like them a lot)
Patagonia merino
Patagonia Capilene
Terramar EC2 Silk ( I use these to sleep in )

2 pair Thermax's Cool-max wicking sock
2 pair Smartwool Hikers or Expedition weight depending on temps

Mnt Hardware gloves
Light weight wool gloves
Neoprene lower face mask in real low temps

Mnt. Hardware windstopper cap

Micro fleece soft shell treated with Nikwax DWR
Mnt. Hardware shell

I also carry various other pants & tops as mid layers.

[Tipi Walter]

[quote=crazypete;71420

Do you have any links to the "right kind" of smartwool/merino base layers?[/quote]

Check out these beauties:
http://www.icebreaker.com/site/icebr..._leggings.html

[JAK]

What I like about those Icebreaker folks is the way everything has a product code, like 150, 200. 220, 260, etc, which I understand is in grams per square meter. Their lightest stuff is 140g per square meter, so about 4 oz for top or bottom which might have a square yard of fabric, depending on your size.

Still, for a given weight I think the whole merino thing is overblown. If you need 4oz or 6oz or 8oz wool skin layer, then yeah it needs to be merino, but for medium or heavy weight middle layer for over the skin layer, like a 12-16oz or 24oz or 32oz or even 48oz, it doesn't need to be merino, and for cold wet conditions, shouldn't be. Lots of good choices out there for the thicker layers. Merino is only best for the really thin stuff, and alpaca and cashmere and angora are shetland fleece are good choices in those light weights also, maybe not down to 4oz but certainly down to 8oz. I've seen silk/cashmere blends that are pretty awesome. 6oz probably. But there is not much to gained with a 4oz skin layer over a 8oz skin layer if you have to add the 4oz to another layer somewhere else anyway. For some extreme winter backup insurance, 100% wool Stanfields long underwear is just the ticket. $35 at their factory outlet. Weighs about 10-12 oz per square yard, but its merino, and just as warm for its weight as the thinner stuff, and much cheaper pound for pound.

[Dirtygaiters]

I might have to get some of those field liners. Apparently they come well recommended. I feel like they would be more multi-use than some insulated pants, which are very single use.

I just custom fitted my own field liners (basically ran the edge of each leg under the sewing machine and cut off the edge to alter them from baggy to slim-fitting) and I sewed some elastic into the waist and I think like this I could wear them walking, but like you say, insulated pants are single use only, unless you're hiking in the arctic. Also, after I trimmed my field liners down, they weigh a little less: 7.5 ounces rather than 10. That's about what my fleece tights weigh. Still, I dont' see what's wrong with a single use item like this in the winter. Normally I'm hiking in just my pants, but when I get to camp I need something to keep me warm so that's what these are for.

Do you think the merino wool long sleeve would work for summertime, though?

This kit above is designed for 4 seasons. I dont cycle things in and out, I always hike with the full kit. It because, in the whites, the temp can drop really quickly, even in summer and you dont want to get caught atop senor Washington without a winter jacket when a stromfront moves through.

But this is why it seems like I have some summer clothes mixed into my winter gear.

I don't get why someone would carry the same clothes for winter as for summer. If you bring a 25 degree sleeping bag in the summer in the case of a freak mountain storm and overnight low in the 30s, that's one thing, but you don't need a winter jacket or all the accompanying winter clothing at that time of year. If you learn to adapt your clothing for each season I think you'll find yourself carrying less weight and actually being warmer year-round.

[Texasgirl]

For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

[Zzzzdyd]

For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

This to pricey ?

http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/sto...494-ppxs&dds=y

[Jim Adams]

For recent trip to Rockies, I wanted a Smartwool (if I recall it seemed like literally it was the namebrand itself) base layer. At REI, nearly passed out from sticker shock. $70+ for one long sleeve shirt if I recall. Didn't have the heart to price the bottoms. I want to stay warm, just like crazypete. The silk longjohns aren't cutting it for me and I think the wool would be warmer - but not at those prices. Advice on brands/stores would be very appreciated.

It is very expensive but if you try it, you will never go back to anything else. Watch for it on steep and cheap. I got a top for $24 and bottoms for $28 but you have to "catch" them when it happens because they sell out in just a few minutes.

geek

[Wags]

i picked up thin columbia 100% merino wool top and bottom at marshalls for $10 a piece. not nearly as soft as icebreaker or smartwool but for that price they serve as my lightest base layer

[JAK]

$50 is not bad for 100% wool underwear top ot bottoms, and I would pay that much if I say something I really wanted, size and shape wise. $20 is possible though, for most things, though it is easier to find tops than bottoms at that price, usually in the form of a light merino sweater. Good weight as an only layer in summer, or a skin layer in winter. You can get 100% merino wool underwear from Stanfields Factory Outlet in Truro, for $20 tops, $20 bottoms, or $35 combi. Good quality, but more of a winter weight. Great sleep wear to extend a sleeping bag below its range, especially for a down bag into cold wet conditions. Good insurance.

[Jim Adams]

So to answer all the comments about down jackets and bags....I dont like down. It's fragile, expensive and it always comes out of whatever container it's stuffed into and makes a mess.

You can find down gear cheap if you look hard enough.
I am NOT very easy on my down products. I don't baby them and I have yet to have one fail on me. I don't understand why you are having such problems.

geek