LNT PRINCIPALS - Do You Agree?

[Wise Old Owl]

This month's issue of Backpacker got my testosterone going again. Although I can agree on most of the principals, now they want you to dig a 8 inch cathole for your wash water. Now after years of walking well away from camp and spreading wide and far I need to dig a hole? Has anyone here tried to dig a 8 inch hole with a orange plastic junk trowel? The last time I "cat-holed" some grease & wash water outside of camp I was "Surrounded" by large skunks in NH. Sometimes I find some of LNT just plain stupid.

Lets see if anyone else has an issue with a LNT principal.

Oh FYI there is a big article on the AT this month - Haven't read it yet.

[Dirtygaiters]

Wow, what happened to this website? A year ago a topic like this would have had 20 replies by now.

I like to think of LNT as more of a guideline that's influenced by what I see others doing in a particular area that leaves a trace. Mostly I see trash scattered around campsites and also the campsites themselves (not so much talking about the official camping sites on the AT, but on trails in general). So I tend to be very careful not to leave a huge scar on the forest floor when I make camp. If possible, I will push away the leaves when I clear a campsite, then push them back to where they were when I leave.

One thing I take issue with is the burying human waste 6" under ground and packing out used TP. That's just too ridiculous for me. I tend to just find a spot far removed from the trail, go on top of the ground and cover it up with some rocks or heavy sticks. As the sticks decompose, so will the toilet paper, and being exposed to the sun, air and rain I have a feeling it can even decompose faster than being fossilized in a hole underground. An exception is that when I'm out west, in a desert-like area, I always bury TP because things decompose so slowly if you leave a piece of toilet paper exposed to the air, it's likely to stay intact for 10+ years.

[KG4FAM]

Bury wash water? That is stupid. I usually dont use soap so I drink it, but if I did use soap I would just walk away from camp and fling it.

I dont bury my poop either. I just cover it up with sticks and duff and rocks or whatever, just like my dog does.

[Cuffs]

IIRC, that article was by the magazine writers, NOT LNT. If you check out LNT, it states very clearly 6 to 8" and 200 feet away from camp. This is in specific regards to human waste, not gray water.

[Doctari]

Your first mistake was reading BP Rag

As to burying your poo or whatever that deep, it makes no sense, I bury it under the "duff" but atop the "Mineral soil" so sometimes I do go as deep as 6" to 8" but that is if the duff is that deep. And Yea, I have never been able to get that deep with a camp trowel. Many critters can smell something several FEET* below the surface, what is a few inches going to matter.

So Yea, I suppose there are times I disagree with LNT.


* My cats know in less than 8 seconds when I have opened a bag of treets from the basement thru 3 rooms to where they get fed! The rats are even quicker at smelling the "Nummies", even when asleep.

[Tipi Walter]

It's hard to figure where LNT fits into southeast backpacking while surrounded with near constant jets overhead and the endless whine of motorcycles on the roads below the ridges. You may bury your poop 8 inches down and slant each turd 10 degrees to the left and boil your toilet paper down to a mush, but meanwhile the 75 acres across the ridge is being bulldozed for roads and clearcut for logging trucks.

Maybe it's important for you to carry out your own waste and urine while moving thru a soupy mix of toxic air covering the TN valley from Virginia to Georgia. The rigorous backpacker may leave no trace, but the jackals all around his postage stamp "wilderness" are doing all in their power to smoke up more foul air and cut more roads. And yes, even a few of them pull out of their rolling couch-potato cars long enough to befoul whatever they can reach on food. If humans are fire ants, our purpose as seen from an objective observor from above must be to soil and cement what little is left.

Whenever LNT is brought up, I think of a guy swatting off a fly while a rhino is charging. And exactly how does one get motivated to practice LNT when confronted with the AT shelter system? Aren't firerings supposed to be removed? Aren't camps supposed to be far off the trail? Aren't we supposed to camp many yards from water? Shelters for the most part ignore these rules. And the shelters themselves leave a big troubling trace.

[KG4FAM]

And Yea, I have never been able to get that deep with a camp trowel.

I tried it one time and about broke the little orange thing. Never carried the thing after that.

[Rain Man]

I agree with most of the principles of LNT, even if not always with the principals of LNT. ~wink~

And Tipi Walker, I'll try to remember your excuses (?) for ignoring LNT principles, the next time I walk past some "defecant" and TP smack dab on the trail itself. Something I've seen more than once, so somebody must be following your philosophy of "if there's a plane in the sky or vehicle on the earth, then why should I bother with LNT." Frankly, I wish those SOB's would swat their own "flies"! That's what I think of when LNT is brought up.

RainMan

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[Tipi Walter]

Did my sarcasm imply that I leave turds strewn and fail to practice LNT? And it's just not an amorphous plane in the sky or a generic vehicle on the earth, a comment which is a far stretch from a particular plane directly overhead or the loud whine of tangible traffic closeby. Sure, swat your own flies, use a micrometer and tape measure for camp set up and turd patrol, but don't be surprised when the bulldozers come thru the place you just left with no trace to cut a road and leave only stumps.

And the more roads that are cut, the more toilet paper and turds you'll see by the trailhead. Close the roads and road building, stop the logging, clean up the air, consider noise pollution and fix the AT shelter blight, and then we can talk about LNT. If these things cannot be done, then LNT principles mean little.

[berninbush]

It seems to me that Leave No Trace is about two questions:

1. Does what you're doing harm the immediate environment (plants, animals, geological features)?

2. Does what you're doing leave a visible evidence of human activity that may be noticed by other humans enjoying the wilderness?

Clearly, some things do both (extreme example, starting a forest fire). Some things may do the first without doing the second (example, dumping chemicals in a creek that can't be seen but poison the wildlife). But a lot of "leave no trace" seems to be aimed at things that do the second without doing the first (or at least you'd have to work pretty hard to make a case that they actually harm the environment in any significant way). Packing out TP instead of burying it seems to me to be one of those things.

Hard to say where burying your gray water would fall into that. I can't see that it harms the environment OR creates an unsightly area. It's water. It evaporates.

Anyway, I think there's a different ethical level when you're talking about harming nature vs. annoying fellow hikers. Yes it's rude to destroy other people's illusion that they are setting foot where no other human has trod this week. (Can't say "ever"... after all the trail itself is "trace."). It's polite and environmentally sound to restore your campsite to its original state when you're done with it. It's definitely rude to leave toilet paper in the middle of the trail. But will that destroy the woods and cause species to go extinct? Pretty unlikely.

[emerald]

Although I can agree on most of the principals, now they want you to dig a 8 inch cathole for your wash water.

If you check out LNT, it states very clearly 6 to 8" and 200 feet away from camp. This is in specific regards to human waste, not gray water.

I believe LNT specifies catholes are to be be 200 feet from water. If I'm incorrect, someone please link the information.

ATC's LNT page

I don't subscribe to Backpacker and don't have access to the article. What's the stated rational for digging catholes to dispose of gray water? It would seem to me it should be clearly specified in the article and here if we are to have an intelligent discussion. Perhaps the concern is with food waste attracting animals?

[Tipi Walter]

It's polite and environmentally sound to restore your campsite to its original state when you're done with it. It's definitely rude to leave toilet paper in the middle of the trail. But will that destroy the woods and cause species to go extinct? Pretty unlikely.

Basically my point though it took me several paragraphs instead of one sentence.

[JAK]

I try and learn from others, but apply common sense appropriate to the region that I hike.

Leave No Trace has a certain element of "Sound of Thunder" I find disturbing and misguided, though understandable. In the long run we should co-exist with nature by making ourselves a better part of it, not apart from it. Are we doing that? No, we a messing up big time. LNT isn't quite the answer, though it is appropriate to some places which are particularly sensitive and high traffic. LNT is a dangerous concept to apply universally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnLZjBnVm38

[Cuffs]

I believe LNT specifies catholes are to be be 200 feet from water. If I'm incorrect, someone please link the information.

Camp water and trails.... http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php

[JAK]

People need to roll around in dirt and sticks and stuff more often whenever they get a chance, and stop trying so hard to protect nature without really getting to know it while at the same time screwing it up from a distance. Learn as much you can about the place you hike, preferably directly from the source or as near as practicable, then apply what you know. Learn from others, and other places, but be mindful when applying concepts developed elsewhere. Nature is connectivity but also diversity. Learn from nature. Be aware globally. Conform locally.

[emerald]

Close the roads and road building, stop the logging, clean up the air, consider noise pollution and fix the AT shelter blight, and then we can talk about LNT. If these things cannot be done, then LNT principles mean little.

Isn't the purpose of building trails and shelters to encourage people to get outdoors and experience the backcountry in a manner which minimizes impacts? If no one cares, there will be no desire to conserve and protect what you profess to hold dear. You are right, lock it up and throw away all the keys, except yours!

[Dirtygaiters]

A discussion about LNT in the context of the AT is perhaps doomed to begin with since the AT is one big trace highway, but I thought Wise Old Owl was starting a topic about LNT not in the context of anything, am I wrong?

You don't have to go over your campsite with a micrometer to leave it the way it was. All you have to do is practice a few non-intuitive habits, like not building a fire ring; building a fire on mineral soil, rather than on forest duff; not trampling or pitching a tent on vegetation, rather than trampling vegetation and pitching a tent on a bed of moss or something; not cutting trees for firewood, but rather gathering dead and down wood from a wide area; and not littering, not even into your campfire. So many backpackers just don't understand why they shouldn't build fire rings or cut down trees for their campfire so they end up doing it anyway and leaving a trace. All it takes is not doing those things and all of a sudden they just left a no trace campsite. Not that hard, folks.

[Dirtygaiters]

Isn't the purpose of building trails and shelters to encourage people to get outdoors and experience the backcountry in a manner which minimizes impact? If no one cares, there will be no desire to conserve and protect what you profess to hold dear. You are right, lock it up and throw away all the keys, except yours!

I'm pretty sure most of the shelters are leftovers from an era when backpackers didn't have the convenience of ultralight tents, and carrying a 15 pound canvas tarp on your back was impractical, particularly considering that such things can get heavier as they get wet. So the shelters were, in a way, necessary in the early days of the trail, just to hike such long distances. These days, they are not necessary in any way at all, and really only encourage irresponsible behavior on the trail, like idiots not packing a shelter on their backpacking trips.

[MOWGLI]

My LNT practice includes rarely building a fire. That's one of the biggest impacts you can have. Just scavenging firewood can cause trampling all around the campsite of shelter.

There are several Whiteblazers quoted in the AT article, including me, The Goat, and Jack Tarlin. I haven't read the article yet. I only skimmed it.

[jhick]

Camp water and trails.... http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php

fromt the site... "Popular types of natural toilet paper include stones, vegetation and snow. "


can't say I've tried a stone... or snow for that matter.