Seriously cold weather and Alcohol stoves!

[Smile]

OK, first test was just lighting the fuel and getting it started, just out of the house at 18 degrees, no problem. What I did learn is that wooden matches are a bad idea in the cold!

Next I left the gear out till well after dark, it's now 11 degrees. I used one ounce of denat alcohol, and one cup of water. It took two minutes almost exactly for the stove to prime and then "catch" to all the holes. I agree about the lighter ( which I used) definitely needs to be in a pocket. It took several tries to light, but then was AOK.

I did not use a wind screen, nor a lid for the ti mug. It took 4.25 minutes to boil one cup of water, there were breezy gusts of wind. I wanted to create a scenario without all the extras to see how it would go. The flame burned for a little while more before it went out.
video

I guess it really depends on how much water you are boiling as well

[Gumbi]

OK, first test was just lighting the fuel and getting it started, just out of the house at 18 degrees, no problem. What I did learn is that wooden matches are a bad idea in the cold!

Next I left the gear out till well after dark, it's now 11 degrees. I used one ounce of denat alcohol, and one cup of water. It took two minutes almost exactly for the stove to prime and then "catch" to all the holes. I agree about the lighter ( which I used) definitely needs to be in a pocket. It took several tries to light, but then was AOK.

I did not use a wind screen, nor a lid for the ti mug. It took 4.25 minutes to boil one cup of water, there were breezy gusts of wind. I wanted to create a scenario without all the extras to see how it would go. The flame burned for a little while more before it went out.
video

I guess it really depends on how much water you are boiling as well

Out of curiousity, what kind of stove were you using?

[Smile]

A little pepsi can stove I got from AntiGravityGear. Tin Man does these I believe, I also use the caldera cone, but I dont have it with me right now.

What I should do, is replicate the two cup model you were going with, and try that with one ounce of denat. and see how it goes. I got rid of my wind screen thing when I bought the cone, it in itself is a screen, and works really well. I wonder if altitude effects alcohol along with the cold, I would think that it would.

I had on gloves, and the lighter was super hard to use! Keep warm

[Gumbi]

I had on gloves, and the lighter was super hard to use! Keep warm

There has to be an easier way!

My lighter, in addition to being hard to use with cold fingers, froze up and refused to light. I wondered if it had just run out of butane, so I brought it inside. As soon as it warmed up, it lit right up, just like it is supposed to.

Matches were easier to manipulate with the fingers, but they didn't want to stay lit in the cold weather, and it took several tries to keep one lit long enough to vaporize and light the alcohol. I can't even imagine trying matches in any kind of wind at that temp.

I doubt that a firesteel would do the trick by itself. Anyone have experience with it?

Any other good ideas to try?

[oops56]

Here is video on lighters the last one i like to use works great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlMY...e=channel_page

[Gumbi]

Here is video on lighters the last one i like to use works great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZlMY...e=channel_page

That might do the trick!

[mkmangold]

"By the way, did you know that when you throw a pan of boiling water into the air in -9F, it freezes before it hits the ground!?!

I almost went outside to try this out and film it but it is (fortunately) only 1 degree F here in SE Wisconsin.

[buckwheat]

It's not the alcohol that is the problem ...

Bingo! You get a dancing banana!



Denatured alcohol is flammable as long as there's oxygen available. Being able to have a flame is not really the point, though, is it? What can you do with that flame ... how many BTUs per hour can that flame emit? These are the considerations that someone not selling alcohol stoves cares about.

The fuel has nothing at all to do with whether an alcohol stove is appropriate for your winter hiking needs.

Winter hiking needs are vastly different than summer needs. A stove that takes 8 minutes to boil a litre of water in summer at sea level really isn't a problem, since you can stand around for 8 minutes waiting on it without even noticing the time passing.

When it is 4 degrees and the wind is blowing 25 miles per hour steadily, gusting to 50 ... 22 minutes waiting for a litre of water to boil will be problematic to say the least. Additionally, you cannot use most of these stove designs to melt snow ... not because it isn't possible, but because it's not practical. You usually are not carrying enough fuel and you'll freeze to death long before you ever die of dehydration waiting on the thing to melt snow.

If you are venturing into winter conditions, then packing and relying on stoves of this design is foolhardy. I would not recommend to a friend that they attempt it any more than I'd recommend that they venture out without a coat ... even though it's technically possible for them to do so.

[Homer&Marje]

This is a great, well written scientifically conducted post that the engineer in me really appreciates. thanks!

This is precisely why I do not use an alcohol stove, cold weather. People always say they can use an alky stove on the trail just fine, but I have always questioned their true winter experience since I have yet to a) get one to work in the cold, and b) have never seen anyone use on in the cold.

By the way, "cold" to me is below 15F. (It was -1 here this morning with the windchill, and 11 without).

They use alcohol stoves and heet on the Iditorod Trail every year in Alaska. and 15* to them is summer time

I plan on doing a little testing of my stoves as well. I feel a lot of preparation will lead to very little effort. If your going on an overnight or two, first keep your cook set somewhere insulated in the middle of your pack. Take things out prior to cooking and put them inside your jacket to warm them up if necessary.

You could get crazy and go as far as taking a set of hand warmers, use one at a time and put it inside your cookset as your hiking. They stay warm for 6 hours, and would give you a warm start. If you leave most things in sub zero temperatures it's not gonna work well. Not just Alky stoves.

Off the ground, don't rush the process, and always carry matches and a lighter.

[russb]

Bingo! You get a dancing banana!



Denatured alcohol is flammable as long as there's oxygen available. Being able to have a flame is not really the point, though, is it? What can you do with that flame ... how many BTUs per hour can that flame emit? These are the considerations that someone not selling alcohol stoves cares about.

The fuel has nothing at all to do with whether an alcohol stove is appropriate for your winter hiking needs.

Winter hiking needs are vastly different than summer needs. A stove that takes 8 minutes to boil a litre of water in summer at sea level really isn't a problem, since you can stand around for 8 minutes waiting on it without even noticing the time passing.

When it is 4 degrees and the wind is blowing 25 miles per hour steadily, gusting to 50 ... 22 minutes waiting for a litre of water to boil will be problematic to say the least. Additionally, you cannot use most of these stove designs to melt snow ... not because it isn't possible, but because it's not practical. You usually are not carrying enough fuel and you'll freeze to death long before you ever die of dehydration waiting on the thing to melt snow.

If you are venturing into winter conditions, then packing and relying on stoves of this design is foolhardy. I would not recommend to a friend that they attempt it any more than I'd recommend that they venture out without a coat ... even though it's technically possible for them to do so.

You keep lumping all alcohol stoves into a single category, "stoves of this design". I have said many times there are alcohol stoves that do work very well in the cold and the conditions you describe. The pepsi can side burning etc... stoves are NOT it.

The iditarod mushers use alcohol stoves to melt snow as do I. It isn't a matter of being "technically possible", it is very practical WITH THE RIGHT ALCOHOL STOVE.

I suppose we can agree to disagree.

[yaduck9]

Does anyone know someone who lives in the northern latitudes, dog sleds and uses an alcohol stove? I am sure someone on the forum knows someone...

What stove design is it?

Its always good to consult with someone who has been there.

[russb]

Yaduck, I do not know any dog sledders but their published stories are fascinating. A good read is "No End in Sight. MY Life as a Blind Iditarod Racer".

Here is some info on dog sledders and their alcohol cookers:

Another story: http://www.rnorthbounddogs.com/WhiteMtToNome.html

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html

A company that sells cookers: http://www.shopworks.com/adanac/

[yaduck9]

Yaduck, I do not know any dog sledders but their published stories are fascinating. A good read is "No End in Sight. MY Life as a Blind Iditarod Racer".

Here is some info on dog sledders and their alcohol cookers:

Another story: http://www.rnorthbounddogs.com/WhiteMtToNome.html

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF16/1634.html

A company that sells cookers: http://www.shopworks.com/adanac
/

Thanks for the post. It almost sounds like a non pressurized or low pressure stove.

At least we know that alcohol can be used in the cold. We just need to know the design of the stove.

[buckwheat]

They use alcohol stoves and heet on the Iditorod Trail every year in Alaska. and 15* to them is summer time

No, they don't use the typical type of alcohol stove you'll find in a hiker's pack - or the "Pepsi-can" stove, as they are known.

Sledders in the Iditarod use huge amounts of alcohol fuel in very large stoves that are packed on dog sleds. Such stoves are not practical to hike with, and are in no way comparable to a typical alcohol stove carried by a hiker.

Sledders carry these large alcohol stoves because alcohol fuel is not as explosive as alternatives; they do it for the safety reasons, at the sacrifice of the much, much better BTU potential of white gas stoves.

They do not do it because alcohol stoves are better at melting snow, for example.

[Tinker]

A five gallon alcohol stove isn't practical for backpackers.

[MDhiker1967]

I used a Mini Bull design Mini Atomic stove this morning in 0* temp.. to boil just under 2 cups of water and this was while out on a shortened hike.. I used a windscreen. and had a mini bic lighter that was cold as well... It took me 2 times to get stove lit but once it did I had no problems....The Mini Atomic stove is a good little stove...

[MDhiker1967]

Attachment 5456

[JumpInTheLake]

Tinny at MiniBullDesign has videos of his wick type stoves boiling water at very cold temps. He's on YouTube.

[Dances with Mice]

Sledders carry these large alcohol stoves because alcohol fuel is not as explosive as alternatives; they do it for the safety reasons, at the sacrifice of the much, much better BTU potential of white gas stoves. They do not do it because alcohol stoves are better at melting snow, for example.

That's not exactly what Jeff King is reported to have said:

Ten years have passed since Jeff King last poured white gas over his two-burner stove and set it on fire to make it functional. Like other mushers competing in the Iditarod Trail sled dog race, King has taken advantage of the new technology that has emerged in the three decades since the first Iditarod.

King, a three-time Iditarod champion and 1989 Yukon Quest winner, remembers using a two-burner Coleman stove to heat water for his dogs in the early days of his racing career. During extreme cold weather, he sometimes needed to preheat the stove's components by setting the stove ablaze, then moving back in to light the burners after the inferno died down.

" It was heavy and cumbersome and tremendous trouble," King said recently from his home in Denali Park. "Once the alcohol cooker came on the scene in the early 90s, the white gas stove was obsolete in 12 months," King said.

Since the article was written, Jeff won again making him a 4X Iditarod champ.

[Dances with Mice]

That's not exactly what Jeff King is reported to have said:

Oops. Source.