Seriously cold weather and Alcohol stoves!

[eyewall]

Hiya Gumbi. Nice to see another Iowan on the site. We are pretty rare. I use a Heinekin beer can for my pot surrounded by Kevlar tape. No pot gripper. Check out http://www.freewebs.com/jasonklass/heinekenpotwick.htm

[russb]

An addendum. This past weekend I used my fancee feest alcohol stove to melt snow and cook my food. The nightime temp was -5*F, warmed up to about zero when I made breakfast. Alcohol was sitting out all night as was the stove, and cookpot (AGG 3-cupper). I melted enough snow (and boiled) to make a large cup of coffee as well as 2 servings of oatmeal. Used just under 2oz (volume) of DA. In my experience the starlyte stove is better in this temp than the fancee feest, as the frozen cookpot doesn't touch the stove; well it doesn't on mine

[Gumbi]

An addendum. This past weekend I used my fancee feest alcohol stove to melt snow and cook my food. The nightime temp was -5*F, warmed up to about zero when I made breakfast. Alcohol was sitting out all night as was the stove, and cookpot (AGG 3-cupper). I melted enough snow (and boiled) to make a large cup of coffee as well as 2 servings of oatmeal. Used just under 2oz (volume) of DA. In my experience the starlyte stove is better in this temp than the fancee feest, as the frozen cookpot doesn't touch the stove; well it doesn't on mine

That is excellent information to have! Just to know, "Hey, I need twice as much Alcohol as I do in the summer" is very helpful!

I am a little surprised because I thought it would take a lot more than that to melt snow! How many cups would you say you boiled? Two or three?

Thanks once again for this report! I have been too lazy to conduct any more experiments of my own.

[russb]

That is excellent information to have! Just to know, "Hey, I need twice as much Alcohol as I do in the summer" is very helpful!

I am a little surprised because I thought it would take a lot more than that to melt snow! How many cups would you say you boiled? Two or three?

Thanks once again for this report! I have been too lazy to conduct any more experiments of my own.

I would say about 3 cups total. It was done in 2 stages. The first was for coffee, which was about 2 cups, then about a cup for the oatmeal.

[Mags]

White gas stoves are preferred by mountaineers for their ability to work well and melt snow efficiently in very extreme temperatures.

That's the main reason why WG is usually preferred for true winter use.

An alcohol stove (or canister stove for that matter) for a simple boil even in winter..but it will still use more fuel.

*IF* if you are melting lots of snow and/or making meals for multiple people, a WG stove is going to be more efficient and less painless to use in winter overall.

re: Idiatrod

How much fuel do they carry vs. a mountaineer/backpacker?

[zelph]

That's the main reason why WG is usually preferred for true winter use.

An alcohol stove (or canister stove for that matter) for a simple boil even in winter..but it will still use more fuel.

*IF* if you are melting lots of snow and/or making meals for multiple people, a WG stove is going to be more efficient and less painless to use in winter overall.

re: Idiatrod

How much fuel do they carry vs. a mountaineer/backpacker?

I read recently on an iditerod blurb that one of the reasons they switched to alcohol was for safety reasons. WG being much more flammable. The wickatized stoves will burn WG in a pinch, a little on the dirty side but in a pinch they can be used. The StarLyte would be the best choice for that because it won't spill out of the stove.

[Gumbi]

What you say is true: a white gas stove has roughly twice as much energy than alcohol stoves, but as long as you are only three or four days between resupply and choose an alcohol stove that works in cold weather, I would prefer it to the sometimes cantankerous nature of white gas stoves because of its fool-proof simplicity. Also, I much prefer the smell of alcohol over the smell of gas when I accidentally spill it while wearing my clumsy gloves.

I don't think that it is fair to compare the Iditarod stoves and the quantity of fuel the racers carry, because they have a sled to carry it all on, they have to boil several gallons of water at a time, and they have to go quite a ways between resupply.
The AT hiker goes maybe 4-5 days without resupply? He/she boils maybe two cups at a time, two meals a day. So maybe that is four fluid ounces of alcohol a day, 16 ounces for four days. 16 fluid ounces (which probably only weighs maybe 10 ounces?) plus another 3-4 ounces for the stove and windscreen, and you are still in the ballpark of the weight of most White gas stoves, right? (the whisperlight international is 11.5 ounces without gas and primer paste and the simmerlight is 8.5 ounces)

[Mags]

Well, since people are bringing up the Idiatrod example, I think asking much fuel they carry and the logistic support they have is a pertinent question.

MREs work great too..if you have the logistic support of the US military.

In both cases, winter backpacking/mountaineering is a different ball of wax. If I had huskies pulling my sled and a team of support, I'd take everything up to and including the kitchen sink.

Finally, as mentioned, if you have to melt a lot of snow and/or do so for many people a WG stove is gonna be great..esp for true winter conditions.

While the southern Appalachians can certainly get darn cold, it is much more mild than howling above treeline conditions you may face for mountaineering. Or even melting snow for four people at a snow cave above treeline in Colorado.

In the end? It is just a stove. Take what works. There is no best answer...

[MagicCityMatt]

The Penny alcohol stove performs pretty well in extreme cold because it uses its top cap as an insulating base so your heat is not all sucked away by whatever you are setting it on. Also The flame comes into direct contact with the exterior flange which is extremely efficient at transferring heat back into the fuel cup to keep it vaporizing well. I haven't tried it yet in temps like the ones mentioned in the original post of this thread but I do put a lot of faith in these things. I have not had one fail me yet.
I agree with mags though. Whatever works, you know. Experimenting is half the fun of this stuff anyways.

[Homer&Marje]

I will be making a large capacity stove coming up shortly. The idea came to me when we started buying this crazy imported coffee at my restaurant recently.

The canisters that the coffee come in are durable aluminum and about 9" in diameter. My idea is to make a fairly thin, but very wide stove that will hopefully run on 2 oz of fuel. Maybe 3 oz. Again "High Capacity Stove".

I plan on using the design of the pressurized pepsi can stove that I have now. I have to wait until a day that I use my car instead of bicycle to get to work, (can't fit them in my backpack, well not two of them).

I expect the finished product to look about like 2 small frizbees put together and all in all will weigh only 3-5 oz. Lets see how it goes. I will picture or video the whole process. Then we will see if it works.

And buckwheat. I know there is a difference between my pepsi can stove and an Iditarod Trail stove. Just because theres is bigger doesn't mean that's why it works in the cold. It's because they are doing something right to make it work in the cold.

[Doctari]

I used my alchy stove 3 times at the Mt Rogers hangout last weekend:
Alchol stove (fancy feast can with about 20 holes in the sides), Jet Boil pot & lid, MSR windscreen, Water to the Jet boil fill line.

Friday 30 degrees, dinner fixed in about 7 minutes. (Tuna, couscous, soup mix)
Sat 27 degrees, Breakfast in 5 minutes (3 packs of instant grits with Peperoni bits sliced into it.)
Sun 20 degrees, Breakfast in 6 minutes (some kind of chinese soup mix)

Each time I used 1 OZ of fuel AND still had flame after I had boiling water in my food. Sat AM, enough leftover flame to heat water for a cup of hot chocolate.

Yea, alchy stoves work when it's cold!

[sclittlefield]

Did you have your Supercat set on anything as an insulator or was it right on the ground? Thanks for the update.

[Gumbi]

Did you have your Supercat set on anything as an insulator or was it right on the ground? Thanks for the update.

Well, I didn't set it right on the ground, but it was on a piece of aluminum. Aluminum would conduct the heat from the stove away pretty quickly. It might have been part of my problem.

[zelph]

Check out the second page of the thread. It has a photo of what one might expect to see inside of an Iditerod Musher Stove. Just for the heck of it.

http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1470

.

[Wags]

irt having supercat right on the ground...

i built a little docking station to sit my supercat on to keep it off the ground. kinda simple, easy to make. i found the info either here on on bpl. it serves the purpose of keeping the stove from sitting on the cold ground and also adds stability as i have a little hole drilled into the side of the dock that i drive a tent stake through... it's nice

thanks for whoever's idea it was...

[MagicCityMatt]

With the penny the top becomes the bottom and seals pretty well so you have a pretty nice cushion of warm air underneath.

[Doctari]

BTW: My stove was sitting directly on the picnic table at the Wise shelter, the wind was blowing across the frint of the shelter (out of the west I think) I'm guessing about 20 mph with gusts,, most of the time I stood between the wind & the stove, but not always.

I used my alchy stove 3 times at the Mt Rogers hangout last weekend:
Alchol stove (fancy feast can with about 20 holes in the sides), Jet Boil pot & lid, MSR windscreen, Water to the Jet boil fill line.

Friday 30 degrees, dinner fixed in about 7 minutes. (Tuna, couscous, soup mix)
Sat 27 degrees, Breakfast in 5 minutes (3 packs of instant grits with Peperoni bits sliced into it.)
Sun 20 degrees, Breakfast in 6 minutes (some kind of chinese soup mix)

Each time I used 1 OZ of fuel AND still had flame after I had boiling water in my food. Sat AM, enough leftover flame to heat water for a cup of hot chocolate.

Yea, alchy stoves work when it's cold!