I'm curious now, going to hike there, make video of it for youtube, just need to purchase some pepper balls for paintball gun!
This is just wrong.Originally Posted by weary
The reason it is trashed is b/c people (visitors, hikers, day trippers) deposit trash on the ground and refuse to act as responsible and caring people.
It is a case of simple mathematics with regard to refuse. There are exponentially more depositors of trash to the ground than there are removers of trash from the ground.
The fact is that if the trash were never placed on the ground in the first place there would be no need to pay or have someone to maintain an area.
Your earlier assertion that LNT is an impossible goal is laughable. I assume that b/c you post here you are a serious hiker and outdoor person. It is disturbing that you blamed the government and the maintainers for the accumulation of trash while at the same time dismissing the real cause as "human nature".
As a citizen who picks up trash daily from the sidewalks of my town's streets as I walk for pleasure and as a hiker who always hikes out more trash than I generate I say BOO to you.
carry in - carry out is LNT
Bringing the 90's to the 21st century.
I've watched the trails go from filthy with crap, to remarkably clean, back to filthy with trash. A few of us cleaned up the can dumps that used to grace every fire place as the message of "carry in, carry out" caught on in the late 60s, early 70s. The turn around was truly remarkable.
Sadly, when the simple, but doable message was forgotten, and the impossible "leave no trace" message took its place, I watched the trash return.
A couple of years before he died, I met the Paul Petzoldt, who invented the LNT movement. By then he had abandoned the concept. Why? "It's impossible to achieve, so people stop hearing the message," Paul said.
Last edited by weary; 05-10-2011 at 13:14. Reason: add name
It's not impossible. I haven't been there yet and I got the message and am happy to comply. I believe WB and all the people on it comply.
Those that danced were thought mad by those who could not hear the music. George Carlin
For every free burger a hiker receives at Neels Gap they should be charged one 5 gal bag of trash. They will run out of trash before they run out of burgers.
The trouble I have with campfires are the folks that carry a bottle in one hand and a Bible in the other.
You never know which one is talking.
Most of us on White Blaze spend time in the outdoors and writing and thinking about the outdoors. We understand the complexities of leave no trace. But we represent a tiny fraction of one percent of the outdoor community.
A typical user of the outdoors doesn't do this. He just goes out for a walk or to camp. Carry in, Carry out can be absorbed in the fraction of a second it takes to read the message. Leave no trace is a simple message also, except when the reader turns around and sees his footprints in the mud. We are bombarded with messages everyday. Most we ignore, especially those that are in anyway ambiguous, or unpleasant. The evidence of my eyes tells me that LNT fails the test.
I was doing a talk on NLT to new scout parents. I handed out the NLT handout and was going over the principles and one of the Moms read the part about packing out used TP, and said "that's not going to happen" and from that point on the rest of the group had the "when is this talk done" look on their faces.
I believe it is far better to teach "pack it in pack it out", and "leave it better than you found it" to the average weekend hiker. If you can encourage each one to carry out 1 or 2 items of trash, then we will be a lot further ahead.
When you start telling them to pack out used TP or to not use TP at all, you start sounding like a zealot and they stop hearing.
Just my two cents.
From some of the LNT stuff I read it does not recommend packing out TP, except in desert/arctic-like environments, but not on (most) of the AT. You gotta admit, packing out TP is kind of zealous. Just not required.
Has LNT changed WRT packing out TP?
Unfortunately, I think it is a symptom (one of many) of a larger systemic societal problem.
I understand the argument of LNT is impossible. If you step on a twig that snaps, leave a footprint in the dirt, or a scuff mark on a rock you have left a trace.
From that perspective it is a flawed philosophy, but is that the right perspective?
I argue it is not.
If anything it is a conceptual starting point, a goal that represents a high bar of achievment, and is certainly worthy of merit.
Like I said, carry in - carry out is leave no trace.
It is the extreme sport form of good stewardship.
Bringing the 90's to the 21st century.
http://www.lnt.org/training/PDFs/PrinciplesTrifold.pdf
"Deposit solid
human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished.
Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products."
We just use the materials from the web site.
That does seem new, however, it may be that LNT is not well standardized. That's just not necessary. Are they saying that you should also pack out TP when using a backwoods privy? I guaranteeTP in the woods breaks down much quicker than TP in a privy, even most of the mouldering/composting privies.
More from LNT
Also from the site:
http://www.lnt.org/programs/principles_3.php
"Natural toilet paper has been used by many campers for years. When done correctly, this method is as sanitary as regular toilet paper, but without the impact problems. Popular types of natural toilet paper include stones, vegetation and snow."
I am not saying I disagree with any of this. I am just pointing out that the average weekend suburban hiker is going to lose interest in LNT very quickly if we start preaching this stuff.
The average person wants to feel like they are doing the right thing, they just don't want to put a lot of effort into it.
Wrong!
By hikers that don't have any respect for anything. Too busy being "awesome."
All the shelters I've looked in are trashy, carved up, written on, food stained and treated terribly.
HIKERS do this.
Even the ones away from road access.
When was the last time you saw someone do something like this and didn't say a word about it, or found the same name magic markered on each shelter you pass by.
Don't blame all this on townies, or section hikers or anyone else.
"Whoa dude", "that's Awesome".
Enough people go to places like Blood Mountain to put a stop to it.
I guess it depends on whether you are looking for a philosophical discussion, or whether you are seeking to change hiker attitudes. LNT is great for discussions such as we are having here. It has proved to be a terrible way to get most hikers to pick up after themselves, and others. Most just tune out the message.
how to scare the bears off!
no one has mention my favorite method of getting rid of the bears
when they get in way! that way is with FIRE! CRACKERS! have used
them in the SMOKIES big success. throw out 4 firecrackers with the
fuses twisted together, throw them as close to old ugly bruin as
you can ! have tried it with much success. they can't stand loud
noises such as FC.
Cutty
Siddhartha never sought to change anyone.
If practiced LNT is great in reality.
Like I said it is a societal problem. Visit any city in America and look at all of the trash. Some of those people come to the woods. When in the woods they throw trash on the ground just like they do when they are in the city.
For some reason you refuse to blame those who deserve and instead call a philosophy failed and impossible to implement.
I am confused as to why you keep blaming LNT and not the people that leave the trash.
Bringing the 90's to the 21st century.
I don't think any one is letting people off the hook, but people are who they are.
Think of it like this. A craftsman uses tools to turn his raw material into a useable product. If he has the wrong tools for the job at hand, the final product will turn out poor. It does no good to blame the raw material, the raw material is what it is. A skilled craftsman uses the tools most suited to the job.
In this case people are the raw material, LNT is the tool. All anyone on here is trying to say is that it is a poor tool for the job at hand.
Since we can't control the raw material, our only choice is to change the tools.
Flawed analogy. "Raw materials" are passive, totally subject to the craftsman or manufacturer working with them. As a card-carrying "people" myself, I take offense to being called "raw material." I won't go on an extended rant about social engineering, "Building Socialism," "The New Soviet Man," or other ideological systems that treated people as raw materials in the service of some grand idea, but that kind of thinking not only doesn't work, but it also generates massive cruelty and injustice.
And, aside from the "raw material" idea, though as a society we can't completely control people, we CAN influence each other. Plenty of offensive practices that were commonplace in my youth are rare, or considered unacceptable, today.
It's simple. When the message was simple, most people followed the message. Now the message is complicated. And the evidence over the decades makes it clear that most people don't take the time to understand that Leave No Trace doesn't mean leave no trace, which is impossible, but leave as little trace as possible.
Preach Leave no trace as much as you wish. You will have to change the nature of the human race to make it work for other than a tiny minority.
Last edited by weary; 05-12-2011 at 22:57. Reason: remove confusing commas
As a Scouter, and hiker, I try to practice and teach LNT principles. However, I just can't bring myself to pack out TP (sorry). I do bury it (which way too many people do not do!!). I also stress the need to pick up after the slobs who leave garbage behind. Last summer, my 12 year old ended up picking up over 7 extra pounds of trash (one of those mini string backpacks -full) on a 50 mile hike of the North Country Trail along Michigan's Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. We will see what we come up with this year on our SNP hike.
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