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  1. #1
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    Default Sunday Hunting in Pennsylvania?

    For an article by Darrin Youker which ran in yesterday's Reading Eagle, click on Sunday hunting ban targeted for repeal.

    HOUSE BILL 779

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    Hi,

    We’re glad that you are enjoying your Sunday walk in State Game Lands. The Susquehanna Appalachian Trail Club conducts many hikes and trail maintenance activities in State Game lands. Eleven were scheduled (just on Sundays) for this quarter ( September to November, 2009).


    If one of the bills in the legislature (such as HB 779) becomes law, the Game Commission would have the authority to open this land to Sunday Hunting.

    Since there are 3.6 million hikers in Pennsylvania – and 2.0 million wildlife-watchers, we feel that the 700,000 hunters should be satisfied with six days / week of hunting and do not need seven days. This is NOT a matter of “blue laws”, it a matter of fairness. The 17 % who hunt (12,448,279 divided by 700,000) should not dictate to the other 83 %.

    Please contact your State Senator and Representative and tell them that SUNDAY IS FOR THE REST OF US - for the majority of Pennsylvanians.

    It’s simply a matter of sharing the land and trails. The hunters are contacting their legislators on this. If we are silent now, the woods will not be silent on Sundays.

    R. Martin, Conservation Chair, Susquehanna A.T. Club


    Please take a walk on the Rails-Trail in Stony Valley on Sundays.
    Print up a dozen of these flyers and hand them out

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    Wait... hunting on Sunday is against the law in Pennsylvania?

    I just hiked 23mi through palmerton/windgap on Sunday (which winds through Game Commission Lands) and I don't think 5-minutes went by where I didn't hear gunfire, between Sunrise and Sunset.

    Me and my hiking partner constantly remarked that we thought they were using mortars to blow up deer as that's what it sounded like.
    up over the hills, theres nothing to fear
    theres a pub across the way with whisky and beer
    its a lengthy journey on the way up to the top
    but it ain't so bad if you have a great big bottle o'scotch

  4. #4
    Registered User Tuckahoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
    Hi,

    We’re glad that you are enjoying your Sunday walk in State Game Lands. The Susquehanna Appalachian Trail Club conducts many hikes and trail maintenance activities in State Game lands. Eleven were scheduled (just on Sundays) for this quarter ( September to November, 2009).

    If one of the bills in the legislature (such as HB 779) becomes law, the Game Commission would have the authority to open this land to Sunday Hunting.

    Since there are 3.6 million hikers in Pennsylvania – and 2.0 million wildlife-watchers, we feel that the 700,000 hunters should be satisfied with six days / week of hunting and do not need seven days. This is NOT a matter of “blue laws”, it a matter of fairness. The 17 % who hunt (12,448,279 divided by 700,000) should not dictate to the other 83 %.

    Please contact your State Senator and Representative and tell them that SUNDAY IS FOR THE REST OF US - for the majority of Pennsylvanians.

    It’s simply a matter of sharing the land and trails. The hunters are contacting their legislators on this. If we are silent now, the woods will not be silent on Sundays.

    R. Martin, Conservation Chair, Susquehanna A.T. Club


    Please take a walk on the Rails-Trail in Stony Valley on Sundays.
    Print up a dozen of these flyers and hand them out
    Boy there is just all kinds of stupid in that letter...

    I am not a hunter, but what "R Martin" should understand is that those gamelands, and much of wildlife conservation and preservation efforts are paid for by hunters and shooters. And while some hikers and the like may volunteer time maintaining trails, they just dont come close to what is put forth by hunters. Taxes on firearms and ammunition, as well as the various licenses provide a considerable part of the funds that maintian these lands and manage the wild life. So what if hunters would like to hunt on Sunday, they should have every right to be able to, and to enjoy the resources that they certaily support like anyone else.

    How much of the taxes on the purchase of a backpack or a tent goes directly to game departments and lands?

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    Tuckahoe:

    Good post. And absolutely right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem View Post
    I just hiked 23mi through Palmerton/Wind Gap on Sunday (which winds through Game Commission Lands) and I don't think 5 minutes went by where I didn't hear gunfire, between sunrise and sunset.

    Me and my hiking partner constantly remarked that we thought they were using mortars to blow up deer as that's what it sounded like.
    What you no doubt heard was hunters sighting in their rifles. I'll let ki0eh respond to the other post.

    The issue isn't as simple as some seem to believe. PGC can manage our wildlife populations without Sunday hunting and Sunday has traditionally been a time when residents engage in other activities. A Sunday hunting prohibition allows residents to coexist and to rescind it would require many to modify what they do to accommodate a small group of hunters.

    Last Sunday, I picked up trash with BMECC along its Adopt-A-Highway segment which straddles the AT where it crosses PA 183. We parked on PGC's parking lot to free up the few spaces at the top of the ridge for hikers. When I crossed the AT, those parking spaces on NPS AT Corridor Land were mostly occupied. This is just one of the many club activities which take place on Sundays during the late fall when most hunting occurs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckahoe64 View Post
    I am not a hunter, but what "R Martin" should understand is that those gamelands, and much of wildlife conservation and preservation efforts are paid for by hunters and shooters.
    "R Martin" is a pretty sharp dude, and also a hunter btw. I'm not quite as sharp but I hunt too.

    As for who pays for game lands, note that the PGC is limited by statute to pay $400/acre from the aforementioned revenue sources, although you didn't mention timber and mineral rights sales as additional significant revenue to the PGC.

    There ain't $400/acre land anywhere in PA and there hasn't been for years, especially in the southeastern quadrant near the A.T.

    That's where folks like Central Pennsylvania Conservancy come in. On this page (scroll down just a tiny bit) there is a story about the acquisition about 10 years ago of an extension to SGL 112 in Huntingdon County, as but one example.

    Just reading through the PGC news releases regarding SGL acquisition reveals more about the complex web of partnerships our outdoors lovers engage in to preserve our landscapes.

    It's a lot more than hunters who pay for PA State Game Lands, each of which is recorded at the courthouse as the property of "Commonwealth of Pennsylvania."

  8. #8
    Registered User Tuckahoe's Avatar
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    I am sure that you and Mr. Martin are pretty sharp dudes. And I also thank you for the information and the morning reading. It was a nice way to start off a day off from work. Plus it's always a good thing to learn new things.

    However, as I read over the links that you provided I couldn’t help to realize that it only reinforced my original opinion.

    Thanks for putting me onto the Central Pennsylvania Conservancy, it is a worthy organization. But the CPC in general seems to be like many preservation organization and does very at getting land owners to create easements. Additionally it appears that the CPC does very well at bringing clubs and other preservation groups together and does well at raising the money to help by land. But once bought, how much of this land does the CPC itself pay to maintain?

    Which brings me to the link to the SATC club's website and the Thousand Steps preservation effort reported on the website. It reported the efforts of many preservation groups, clubs, hunters etc., to save the particular property and to incorporate it into "State Game Lands #112." Yes these groups were able to buy the property, but who pays to maintain the property once it's incorporated into the management of the PGC?

    See I may be wrong, and if I am tell me. But, I doubt that those organizations continue to contribute the funds necessary to manage and maintain that property. I bet that once the PGC takes over the land, it is solely the PGC that pays for its upkeep. Which brings us back around to a point that I originally made, and stated on the PGC website --

    "Funded primarily by hunting and furtaker license sales; State Game Lands timber, mineral and oil/gas revenues; and a federal excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition; the Commission is almost entirely supported by hunters and trappers, or assets that have been procured with license dollars. The Commission does not receive state General Fund appropriations. More than half its annual revenue comes from license sales, a relatively fixed income source. License fees cannot be increased without approval of the General Assembly, and fee increases have historically come only about every 10 years."

    According to the PGC it receives NO state general funds appropriations. Further "the Commission is almost entirely supported by hunters and trappers, or assets that have been procured with license dollars."

    Let's restate that once again, the PGC is almost entirely supported by hunters and trappers. And so yes, while others may at times contribute, the PGC is almost entirely supported by hunters. So, how much of the purchase price of a backpack or a tent sold in Pennsylvania goes directly to the funding of the PGC?

    Finally I would like to understand, why the singling out of hunters? After all the support that they provide to the PGC and preservation in general, why maintain a Sunday ban? Why should hunters not be able to enjoy their sports 7 days a week, during their legal and regulated season? I am sure that hikers would be up in arms if they were not permitted to hike on Sundays. I don’t get it, and as if you say that you and Mr. Martin are hunters, you should know better.

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    Default PGC's Funding Mechanisms

    PGC manages State Game Lands for all Pennsylvanians and it's responsible for more than just game species. Because sportsmen bear a disproportionate amount of the burden, PGC has sought to identify and secure other funding sources which would serve to spread the financial burden more equitably among all beneficiaries.

    See Press Release #45-08 for information about HR 1676 and testimony provided by PGC for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuckahoe64 View Post
    According to the PGC, it receives NO state general funds appropriations.
    Not long ago a substantial appropriation was made to pay for environmental improvements, an initiative known as Growing Greener II. The gravel on SGL 110's service road may have been paid for out of those funds. If I can find the information before my editing privileges expire, I'll edit and add it.

    The bridge over Rausch Creek on SGL 211 was paid for by all Pennsylvanians. I located a PGC press release which lists its price tag and how it was funded. I can't seem to come up with the right combination of search terms to relocate it, but it was $43,000 some dollars of Growing Greener II funds.

    An important part of PGC's mission involves education. Residents spending time in the field where they can experience wildlife directly is greatly facilitated by Pennsylvania's hiking clubs and the trails they build and maintain.

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    Am I the only one that believes hiking and hunting can coexist peacefully? I hike a lot during the week and rarely (never) have an issue with hunters or hunting. If you're worried about safety, wear an orange vest. As a hunter, I wouldn't be very interested in hunting directly on or even near a major hiking trail or trail area anyway. Some people act as though if a hiker sets foot in a hunting area he's automatically riddled with bullets, which is a fairly dumb concept. Most hunters are educated enough to safely coexist among other hunters and outdoors people.
    Not all those who wander are lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JF2CBR View Post
    Am I the only one that believes hiking and hunting can coexist peacefully?
    I think the issue is that hunters don't get "accidentally" killed by hikers.
    up over the hills, theres nothing to fear
    theres a pub across the way with whisky and beer
    its a lengthy journey on the way up to the top
    but it ain't so bad if you have a great big bottle o'scotch

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totem View Post
    I think the issue is that hunters don't get "accidentally" killed by hikers.

    Bludgeoned to death with trekking poles?!

    I think there's probably a better chance of being killed in a fatal car "accident" on the way to the trail.
    Not all those who wander are lost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JF2CBR View Post
    Most hunters are educated enough to safely coexist among other hunters and outdoors people.
    It only takes one to have a brief lapse of judgement and someone else to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Some outdoor enthusiasts would rather not put themselves in that position and they ought to be able to enjoy the outdoors too. Certain activities conducted on SGLs don't coexist as well as hiking does with hunting at least simultaneously and not everyone is looking for the same experience.

    Hunters don't own State Game Lands, nor do they hunt there primarily according to what's been posted. However, everyone who lives in Pennsylvania has an interest, even residents who refuse to take a position.

  15. #15
    Peakbagger Extraordinaire The Solemates's Avatar
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    wear enough orange and you'll be fine - many hunters I come across think I am hunting as well - 75% are oblivious I am hiking - they think that everyone in the woods is a hunter.

    i dont like so many hunters crowding my PA trails, but I can always hike elsewhere. if you dont want to hike elsewhere, then stop complaining and dont let the hunters stop you from hiking. (in fact I kinda like pissing hunters off - shows them its my woods too!)


    trudge on!
    The only thing better than mountains, is mountains where you haven't been.

    amongnature.blogspot.com

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    I would have to say that a great number of the numerous posts by both me and emerald aim for greater respect of hunters, and SGL regulations, by hikers, rather than vice versa. Mr. Martin served on a public advisory panel to the PGC when the current SGL use regulations were developed. For him publicly to oppose the current push for Sunday hunting, is out of respect for that finely tuned applecart.

    (I haven't yet mentioned the aspect of Sunday hunting affecting private lands and hunter and other recreational access thereto, as can be seen here the PA Farm Bureau opposes HB 779.)

    With the possible exception of Middle Creek WMA (not a whole lot of hunting going on there, either), any "trail" maintenance done by the PGC, is done from the tractor seat. Any trail you can't drive a tractor over is maintained by volunteers. When you multiply $20 by less than a million hunters, and more than a million acres, you get considerably less than $20/acre for SGL maintenance, bearing in mind law enforcement, game propagation, non-game activites, and even a lawyer or two need to be paid too.

    Neither Mid State Trail Association nor Susquehanna AT Club receives one thin dime from the PGC for their efforts. Instead we are constrained to work only on Sundays during the ever-lengthening high hunting seasons. Perhaps in SGL 211 hikers outnumber hunters in an average year, but certainly in the MST territory on SGL, hunters outnumber non-hunting uses by a significant measure. (About the only area on MST where non-hunters outnumber hunters is in the immediate State College area, where the public land is State Forest not SGL.) The hikers are keeping the trails open for the hunters, not the other way round. If that can't be done on Sundays, then the window for trail work narrows greatly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ki0eh View Post
    I would have to say that a great number of the numerous posts by both me and emerald aim for greater respect of hunters, and SGL regulations, by hikers, rather than vice versa. Mr. Martin served on a public advisory panel to the PGC when the current SGL use regulations were developed. For him publicly to oppose the current push for Sunday hunting, is out of respect for that finely tuned applecart.

    (I haven't yet mentioned the aspect of Sunday hunting affecting private lands and hunter and other recreational access thereto, as can be seen here the PA Farm Bureau opposes HB 779.)

    With the possible exception of Middle Creek WMA (not a whole lot of hunting going on there, either), any "trail" maintenance done by the PGC, is done from the tractor seat. Any trail you can't drive a tractor over is maintained by volunteers. When you multiply $20 by less than a million hunters, and more than a million acres, you get considerably less than $20/acre for SGL maintenance, bearing in mind law enforcement, game propagation, non-game activites, and even a lawyer or two need to be paid too.

    Neither Mid State Trail Association nor Susquehanna AT Club receives one thin dime from the PGC for their efforts. Instead we are constrained to work only on Sundays during the ever-lengthening high hunting seasons. Perhaps in SGL 211 hikers outnumber hunters in an average year, but certainly in the MST territory on SGL, hunters outnumber non-hunting uses by a significant measure. (About the only area on MST where non-hunters outnumber hunters is in the immediate State College area, where the public land is State Forest not SGL.) The hikers are keeping the trails open for the hunters, not the other way round. If that can't be done on Sundays, then the window for trail work narrows greatly.
    Exactly why can't you work on the trail the other six days of the week? People hike them 7 days a week right? Seems rather weird that you say the only day you can do trail maintenance is the day when hunting is banned. Actually makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldawg View Post
    Exactly why can't you work on the trail the other six days of the week? People hike them 7 days a week right? Seems rather weird that you say the only day you can do trail maintenance is the day when hunting is banned. Actually makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
    Although this is one PGC policy that often seems to us to be counter-intuitive, and we hope the further development of KTA as a professional representative organization of hikers in Harrisburg will result eventually in the re-thinking of some PGC policies for mutual advantage...

    just think of calling turkeys in with a chain saw or brushwhacker running nearby, and you might see why the PGC would prefer non-hunting days for trail maintenance.

  19. #19
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    I came off state game land today after hunting all day. Ran into a guy from out of state that wanted to hike. I was proud to say we still have Sunday where you can hike without wondering where the hunters are at. I say US hunters have six days to hunt. If that isn't enough i feel for you. As far as the money issue it will never be solved nor will it be satisfied.

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    This is a somewhat difficult issue. I stand somewhere in the middle.

    I'm a hiker and a hunter.

    You can already hunt legally on Sundays in PA. Crows may be hunted for 9 months out of the year on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays only.

    If Sunday hunting were to be allowed, it would really only effect AT hikers 3 Sundays out of the year, the Sunday before and the 2 after Thanksgiving. You could run into grouse or squirrel hunters at other times, but there won't be the high number of hunters there are in the Bear and Deer seasons.



    Since there are 3.6 million hikers in Pennsylvania – and 2.0 million wildlife-watchers, we feel that the 700,000 hunters should be satisfied with six days / week of hunting and do not need seven days. This is NOT a matter of “blue laws”, it a matter of fairness. The 17 % who hunt (12,448,279 divided by 700,000) should not dictate to the other 83 %.

    Please contact your State Senator and Representative and tell them that SUNDAY IS FOR THE REST OF US - for the majority of Pennsylvanians.


    R. Martin, Conservation Chair, Susquehanna A.T. Club
    Alright, this really bothers me. I hate it when statistics are used selectively to skew the numbers on purpose. If you don't want Sunday hunting, fine, but don't try to mislead me or the public.

    hunters should be satisfied with six days / week
    Why? Hikers get seven.

    Hikers can use public land 24/365. Hunting season lasts about 4 months, and once the clocks change, if you work regular dayshift, it's Saturdays only or use vacation days.

    3.6 million hikers
    2 million wildlife watchers
    .7 million hunters

    How many hikers are also wildlife watchers or vice versa?

    How many hunters are also hikers or wildlife watchers or both? (I'd bet the majority)

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