Teen fined $25,000 for rescue
Just saw this on Yahoo about the Eagle Scout rescued off Mt Washington.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_hiker_fined
no tax on booze in NH but they'll get it back in gung-ho "rescues"
I'm not sure I disagree with his continuing up the mountain- if he was already fairly near the summit, then it would be easier to find help there. Especially if he was lost- the visitor center is right on the summit, isn't it? So wouldn't it be easier to find help by going to the top than the bottom?
(I admit, I have never been to Mount Washington, so I don't really know the "situation" there.)
Man, I bring up the link and find out that Walter Cronkite died.
As for the kid and the 25K fine, I can see this going to court. For that kind of money a good lawyer could reduce that in court.
Considering the fact that the government was involved, I'm surprised the bill didn't come out to $250,000 instead of just $25,000 lol
Yeah there is, atleast for beer..Originally Posted by Lone Wolf
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata...y2008-20090219
Last edited by Sly; 07-17-2009 at 21:05.
beer ain't booze
Yet cities will pay millions because of micheal jackson's funeral? Makes no sense what so ever.
debatable.
kids an idiot:
- hurt his ankle
- not only did he not turn around, he was stupid enough to try a shortcut
- he kept going up the mountain
- Damn $25,000 is a big bill to pay off in a months notice but stupid cost money these days.
They should publicize the fines more. RIght now the only ones who hear about them are hiking groups like ours, VFFT, ADK forums, etc. But we ain't the problem.
News of $25,000 fines need to hit the TV news in Boston, make people think twice about hiking w/o proper gear, and using common sense when situations develop.
There will always be the ultra-macho, I-said-I-was-going-to-summit-today-and-bygod-I-will, never-turn-around kind of guy, but most people (I would hope) will think twice if they think about how much money it might cost them.
It would save lives, too. Brenda Cox might be alive if she and her husband had listened to the three separate descending groups that warned of deteriorating conditions on Lafayette and turned back. Thoughts of paying $25,000 might have been enough to make them turn back when common sense failed.
Frosty
I'd like to think so too but in my short time on earth I haven't noticed that financial penalties mean much to people with no common sense.
Skids
Insanity: Asking about inseams over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
The Visitor Center isn't open in April, but he didn't go to the summit anyway. He left the marked trail and tried to cut cross country. Had he turned back and stayed on the trail, I doubt he would have been fined even though the hike he tried was doomed from the start. The mountain is a totally different place after rains soak the drifts. When it is cold, you can walk on packed snow as easily as on rock. When you sink up to your thighs in wet snow every other step it is hard to make even one mph. The loop he attempted was incredible.
He is lucky he is such a strong hiker and has such vitality, or he wouldn't have survived.
When I was a scoutmaster, I had a terrible time with Eagle Scouts. They were so sure of their strength and ability, and their pride was so strong they never wanted to turn back. When they did, they said it was for the sake of the younger hikers. God bless them, strong young men. It's a wonder any of us guys live long enough for our brains to catch up with our testosterone
Frosty
While I think the teen was negligent and should be fined something, I think $25K is too much for a 17 year old. His age should be taken into consideration. If you add interest to that, it will take him years to pay it off, if he ever pays it off.
Panzer
My recollection of this incident:
He had proper gear and knew how to use it.
He hurt his ankle.
He tried to go down a bad route instead of back up over Mt. Wash. (this was his mistake and was based on lack of knowledge of conditions that he was descending into).
The route he tried to take down had lots of rotten snow with streams going under it -- very dangerous.
He was most of the way back up to the ridge and could have easily made his way out on his own from there.
I don't think he should be fined.
You all must have been some genius M-Fs at 17. I miss the days when we went up the mountain and helped the helpless, even when they weren't genius' at a keyboard.
What I posted in the thread about this incident just after it happened still holds true. You may debate the amount of the fine but all things considered, it isn't that out of line.Snowleopard:
My recollection of this incident:
He had proper gear and knew how to use it.
He hurt his ankle.
He tried to go down a bad route instead of back up over Mt. Wash. (this was his mistake and was based on lack of knowledge of conditions that he was descending into).
The route he tried to take down had lots of rotten snow with streams going under it -- very dangerous.
He was most of the way back up to the ridge and could have easily made his way out on his own from there.
I don't think he should be fined.
It stops being subjective when someone goes out alone on a 17 mile day hike ill prepared, doesn’t return, and his parents call for a S&R. The S&R personnel in the Whites are some of the best to be found and several have Everest experience as well as knowing the Whites from decades of hiking. They make the decision based on experience and I’d hardly call that “too subjective”. The fact that Scott Mason was missing for 3 days also takes subjective out of this equation. Also for others to say:"...but it seems he laid his plans out and people let him go.... call it negligent on everyones part", isn't correct at all. There are no hiking police to prevent people from doing something dumb and I'm sure hikers would scream to high heaven if someone tried to stop them.Pokey2006-“This is why I disagree so strongly with NH's law. Who's to say what is negligence and what is just someone at home panicking? It's too subjective.”
The weather and summit conditions are posted every morning at Pinkham before 7AM so when Scott Mason left there at 8:30AM he knew exactly what to expect, including the avalanche danger. Also leaving that late for a long strenuous hike shows poor judgment on Scott’s part. In the Whites this would still be considered a winter type hike and if you have a recommended group size of 4 to take turns breaking trail where there is deep unpacked snow you might be making far less than a mile per hour, alone it might be impossible. Many long winter trips start before 6AM.
Anyone familiar with the area knows the Great Gulf isn’t the place to be when there is lots of snowmelt. Being on the east side of the mountains it has a tendency to fill with snow and the sun doesn’t have a chance to melt it as fast as that on the westerly slopes. When we get several days of unusually high temperatures the snow starts to melt fast, causing problems for ill informed hikers. It isn’t unheard of for hikers to be trapped in the Great Gulf by high water and having to wait a day or so for it to drop so they could get out. I worked for the USFS years ago and spent 2 weeks working in the Great Gulf plus I have 4 winters working on for the Observatory on the summit and 45 years of hiking the area in all seasons so I consider my experience gives me some insight to comment on this incident. The fact that he walked out is great but it doesn’t change the fact that this was an extremely foolish plan for a hike. It is unfair to compare Scott to Alexander Supertramp because he had some mental issues where Scott is what most people would consider “just a dumb kid.” If you read the following I clipped from the news article you can see how many people his poor judgment put in harms way and the number of resources involved in this S&R. Whether he (or his parents) get charged for the S&R effort remains to be seen.
“Mason was found on the Sphinx Trail in the Great Gulf Wilderness, headed west back toward the summits of the Presidential Range. The search team will hike with Mason back to the summit of Mt. Washington, where he will then ride a Sno-Cat down the auto road. Because of where Mason was located and conditions on the ground, this is the only prudent exit from the mountain.
Conditions in the White Mountains became increasingly treacherous over the course of the search, because rain and rapid snowmelt made many small streams impassable. Search teams needed to use rope traverses to cross raging waters. Yesterday's search crews were exhausted, and additional personnel were sent out this morning.
The NH Fish and Game Department coordinated the search. Trained staff and volunteers from Mountain Rescue Service, Androscoggin Valley Search and Rescue, Pemigewasset Valley Search and Rescue and the Appalachian Mountain Club participated in the search. A Maine Forest Service helicopter conducted an aerial search on Monday afternoon, and a Vermont National Guard helicopter did an aerial search this morning.
Mason was missing for three days, having left the Appalachian Mountain Club's Pinkham Notch Visitor Center at about 8:30 on Saturday morning, intending to complete a 17-mile hike in one day. Mason was hiking alone. His plans included hiking to the summits of Mount Washington and Mount Madison, then returning to the Pinkham Notch Visitor Center.”
I work in EMS, rescue and as a white water guide. My experience with the public has shown that if you publish and advertise the high cost of rescues, the public outcry would be so loud due to restricting the "poor" that the fines would be dropped and "use charges" initiated to pay for rescues. I know that alot of you out there wouldn't mind paying "use charges" but do you really want to pay for others stupidity?
geek
I'm with the old fart .. even though it smells
He's 100% right on about the Great Gulf Wilderness.
It can be extremely dangerous anytime of the year.
oh and i worked at pinkham and went on a S & R once
it's not easy on the best of days ,
my particular experience was on the glen boulder trail .
$25,000 was the Fine. The actual cost had to be much more than this.
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