If there were no shelters?

[emerald]

I wish I could count how many times this same senseless discussion has gone on. Let's just go for a walk, eh?

I was just thinking I'd go for a walk. You'd be welcome to join me, but it would be dark before you'd get here.

[drastic_quench]

Emerald, I imagine you could just talk to yourself; you've managed it just fine here.

[Chaco Taco]

The worst cases of trashing the trail that I've ever seen are tenters who abandon their broken tent/tarps at their campsites.

I do both ways (shelter-wise), even tenting near shelters when the registers suggest mice and other vermin.

Yea and most of the time it is on the trail close to a town, like Watauga Lake where locals trash it and abandon tents and such. Nine times outta ten, hikers will leave a campsite trash free. Shelters will have loads of trash hanging on the insides of them. Look at Apple House Shelter!

[Chaco Taco]

I was just thinking I'd go for a walk. You'd be welcome to join me, but it would be dark before you'd get here.

[warraghiyagey]

Emerald, I imagine you could just talk to yourself; you've managed it just fine here.

[Blissful]

If there were no shelters, there would be no more murders?
Do I get the prize?

No.

Meredith was taken while on the trail and then killed...

[Blissful]

One of the best times I had was atop Whitetop Mtn at Mt Rogers with three other thru hikers. Glorious sunset alongside our tents. Marvelous stuff.

[freefall]

One of the best times I had was atop Whitetop Mtn at Mt Rogers with three other thru hikers. Glorious sunset alongside our tents. Marvelous stuff.

Me too! We sat up there for over an hour one night. We even glimpsed the ISS heading over.

[freefall]

I would not weep no shelters on the A.T.

I headed to a shelter only once outside the Smokies and could have done with ought that.

Come up with some other mitigation in the northeast and let the shelters die.

In areas of high use, create tent sights. In areas of low use, create tent sights.

Provided the potential thru hiker is ready to head north, they will have shelter. Thus no reason to have those boxes along the AT.

If they are SB, then they will definitely have protection from the elements. And again, no reason to rely on the shelters.

Benton Bakaye's vision was actually not anyone to walk the entire AT but for people to interact and create social environments in definable areas.

[freefall]

wrong wrorg wrong

[Gumbi]

You could get rid of the the shelters themselves, but turn the area into a smooth, level campsite for people to pitch their tents. Keep the privies, picnick tables, and fire rings.

It would be the best of both worlds! It would discourage the weekend party groups while maintaining the social aspect of the AT.

[Skyline]

You could get rid of the the shelters themselves, but turn the area into a smooth, level campsite for people to pitch their tents. Keep the privies, picnick tables, and fire rings.

It would be the best of both worlds! It would discourage the weekend party groups while maintaining the social aspect of the AT.

Basically true. Especially keeping the table(s), privy, fire ring (and don't forget the nearby water source and in Bear Country a bear pole or pulley system).

But instead of crowding all the tents in one spot at a flat place where a shelter now stands it would be better to build 6-10 individual tentsites dispersed within about a quarter-mile radius. Better yet if these could be built into modest sidehill.

Crowding tentsites into one flat area is a recipe for it becoming a mud pit in a short time. Dispersing tentsites is a better long-term solution. Digging out sidehill for individual sites greatly decreases the possibility of new tent ghettoes forming over time.

These do require some labor to establish (up to 10 volunteer-hours per site in my experience) and need to be large enough and flat enough to accommodate a variety of tent styles/sizes; if surrounded on the uphill and sides by rocks and/or trenches to inhibit erosion they will last longer. Semi-annual maintenance, comparable to cleaning out waterbars and check dams on the Trail itself, is usually all that's needed to keep them functioning well for years.

Come visit some of the tentsites at Pass Mt. Hut in Shenandoah National Park to see examples.

Better yet, visit Annapolis Rocks in Maryland, where Dr. Jeff Marion pioneered this concept earlier this decade. What was formerly an overused, trashed camping area was turned into a more pristeen hiker destination by breaking up the big flat tenting area and creating an ample number of individual sites built into sidehill. For a description of the problem, and what was proposed to resolve it (has since been implemented), visit http://www.dnr.maryland.gov/publiclands/at.html and scroll down to "Annapolis Rocks."

[DavidNH]

Since we are talking about the Appalachian Trail here, one of the countries most used trails, I would say it would be a terrible idea to remove all the shelters.

1) shelters keep the impact to one place (more or less). removing them would spread it out all over the place.

2) Imagine, for a second it is pouring rain and has been for hours. A roof over your head can be heaven. No roof, you need to set you need to set up tarp or tent in rain. And then where do you cook?

3) I will conceded this much. If shelters where removed and replaced by tent platforms in designated areas, I could more easily accept their removal.

4) Most hikers have their lunch breaks at shelters (or so it seemed to me). this also localizes impact. At least shelters give all the mice one central place they can go for their vittles! Don't want mice, then you tent preferably away from shelter, though not to far away as the shelter is always located close to privy and water source.

5) where there no shelters, wouldn't the mice be a problem everywhere instead of only at shelters as is the case now?

6) ideally, all shelters should be over a mile from the nearest road to keep the partiers away!

David

[Lone Wolf]

2) Imagine, for a second it is pouring rain and has been for hours. A roof over your head can be heaven. No roof, you need to set you need to set up tarp or tent in rain. And then where do you cook?

oh heavens! how awful to set up a tent in the rain and cook in your vestibule.

[Pootz]

I respond to this as someone who had hiked the AT (tons of shelters) and the PCT (virtually no shelters to speak of).

While i don't advocate for adding AT shelters or continuing to build or renovate shelters that are of the Hilton variety (15-20 hiker capacity), shelters have a very functional purpose.

They are a welcome site in a thunderstorm storm or snow storm or during consecutive nights of cold rain, and most people can admit this, even those who love their tents.

If you abolished shelters you'd still have people convening in campsite areas, but the shelter structure itself (and the adjoining register, picnic table and fire pit) bring people together and provide the setting for a thriving AT community that's been bringing people together for years

I agree with A-Train.

I have hiked lots of trails that do not have shelters and always find them to lack the community setting I enjoy on the AT. I like everythign about the shelters: outhouses, picnic tables, social setting, water supply, and a place to get out of the rain. And they help keep the At from being one camp site after another for 2000 miles. If you do not like shelters, people, picnic tables, outhouses etc. There are plenty of trails that will fit your needs. Lets not change the AT that we all love so much.

[The Old Fhart]

Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed?

P.S. -I tent

[kanga]

Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed?

P.S. -I tent

yes..


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[kanga]

oh heavens! how awful to set up a tent in the rain and cook in your vestibule.

i know, right? that would be just awful.

[nufsaid]

Four to five million people per year use some part of the trail system that makes up the Appalachian Trail and because some of the perhaps one thousand elitist thru hikers don't like shelters, the shelters should be removed?

P.S. -I tent

How many of the 4-5 million users actually depend on the shelters? Day hikers make up the majority of the numbers you state. Not to mention tourists that park and check out the trail.

[dreamsoftrails]

Since we are talking about the Appalachian Trail here, one of the countries most used trails, I would say it would be a terrible idea to remove all the shelters.

1) shelters keep the impact to one place (more or less). removing them would spread it out all over the place.

2) Imagine, for a second it is pouring rain and has been for hours. A roof over your head can be heaven. No roof, you need to set you need to set up tarp or tent in rain. And then where do you cook?

the shelters invite impact, and contribute to the perception that anyone can use the AT. most people would quit the first time they made a real camp in the rain.

3) I will conceded this much. If shelters where removed and replaced by tent platforms in designated areas, I could more easily accept their removal.

isn't this basically a camp site?

4) Most hikers have their lunch breaks at shelters (or so it seemed to me). this also localizes impact. At least shelters give all the mice one central place they can go for their vittles! Don't want mice, then you tent preferably away from shelter, though not to far away as the shelter is always located close to privy and water source.

impact would not be there where it not for the perception of availability the shelters give to the trail.

5) where there no shelters, wouldn't the mice be a problem everywhere instead of only at shelters as is the case now?

there would be mice spread out all over the place. no one would notice them.