Snake Bite Kits - Leave Them Home

[grrickar]

Which kind of bites have you had access to and what did you witness?
Please detail, as they are rare and most of us will go a lifetime without the details you have already witnessed TWICE OR MORE!

Did you bother to read the reference I posted on this subject...if so please elaborate, so we can all be enlighted!

I never witnessed any in person, just some on the wonderful world of TV known as the Discovery Channel. I think the show is called Venom ER, and it shows some ugly signs of tissue damage from different snakebites. I never said I witnessed them firsthand.

Yeah, I read the link and found this quote, which still does not describe how it increases tissue damage:
"While applying mechanical suction (such as with a Sawyer Extractor) has been recommended by many authorities in the past, it is highly unlikely that it will remove any significant amount of venom, and it is possible that suction could actually increase local tissue damage. "
If you do a Google search on snake bite, you will find numerous articles - many of which contradict one another. I'm not taking sides here, but I fail to see how a Sawyer Pump could make matters worse.

[grrickar]

One thing I would like to know is in a wilderness situation, the victim has to be moved off the trail and to the nearest town, which may not be very closeby. Unless there are several hikers to help carry the victim, the victim may have to hike out on their own, which means their heartrate will be elevated which is not a good thing. That is one reason I feel that carrying a Sawyer pump could at least get some of the venom out if used immediately after the bite.

Lots of websites out there, most of them contradicting another. For example, some say to apply ice to the site, while others do not.

Here is a link to rattlesnake treatment, from the UCSD website:
http://www-surgery.ucsd.edu/ent/DAVI...e/Crotalus.htm

Step 2 reads: "Identify the bite site, looking for fang marks, and apply the Sawyer Pump extractor with the largest cup possible over the bite site. If there are two or more fang marks noted on the limb, apply the pump extractor over at least one fang mark. If more than one pump extractor is available, they may be applied to the additional fang marks."

For those who think using the pump will delay moving the person and will put them at further risk, I found that in cases where the person will have to walk out on their own most articles stated to lie the victim down and calm them first. It makes sense to me since the victim will likely be excited by the bite, and their heart will be racing.

While calming the patient down, personally I would do the following:
Reassure the patient. Have them remove jewelry and boot if it was a leg bite (swelling may complicate removal later)
Wash the wound with soap and water
Use the Sawyer Pump
Ace/constrictor bandage the site area (not a tourniquet)
Get the patient up and moving

Anyone attend a NOLS first aid class lately? What is their current advice for snakebite treatment?

[grrickar]

I guess I answered my own question:

http://www.nols.edu/wmi/articles/archive/snakes.shtml

"Around the world, snake venom often varies greatly depending on the species, and specific treatment may vary. Most patients will benefit from these guidelines which have been developed especially for North American pit viper envenomation: Calm and reassure the patient. Keep the patient physically at rest with the bitten extremity immobilized and kept lower than the heart. Remove rings, watches, or anything else that might reduce the circulation if swelling occurs. Wash the wound. Measure the circumference of the extremity at the site of the bite and at a couple of sites between the bite and the heart, and monitor swelling. Evacuate the patient by carrying, or going for help to carry, or, if the patient is stable, by slow walking. Do NOT cut and suck. Mechanical suction (NOT oral suction) may be valuable if you get there in the first five minutes. Suction should be applied for 30 minutes via the Sawyer Extractor. Do NOT give painkillers unless the patient is very stable, showing no signs of getting worse. Do NOT apply ice or immerse the wound in cold water. Do NOT apply a tourniquet. Do NOT give alcohol to drink. Do NOT electrically shock the patient."

One other interesting fact I found in the article: "Arizona is the most likely place to die of a snakebite, with Florida, Georgia, Texas, and Alabama filling out the top five."

[orangebug]

Arizona has a type of rattler that also carries a neurotoxin. It is also far more empty than our east.

I would not remove a boot assuming a leg bite, unless we know there is foot jewelry, anklets and the like. Unless I am with a team of 3 or more hikers to help the evacuation, I'd like to use the victim to aid the trip to the trailhead. I would rinse and wash the bite as best as possible, mainly to aid observation of broken fangs for removal, and to allow an easier attachment of the Sawyer Extractor, if I had one.

BTW, the eMedicine site has some photos of rattlesnake and copperhead injuries, which aren't terribly graphic or lunch-losing. Occasionally, the cure of antitoxin can be just as bad, as serum sickness can occur for folks sensitized to horse serum. That can make for a nasty ICU photograph.

[illininagel]

The thing that concerns me about treating snake bites is the complication of hikers that are hiking alone.

What should one do if they are bit by a snake while hiking alone? Is it a good idea to start walking for help, or does this just elevate the heart rate and make things worse? Or, is it best to wait for help if you are on a well travelled trail?

[SGT Rock]

Bandage the wound. Look at the map, find the shortest route out possible. Then walk calmly out while trying to keep the wound below the level of the heart. Most likely this will be on an arm or leg. If possible, like on the leg, then immobilize it. If you run accross someone else, let them know so they can provide help. Do not go off trail to bushwack.

[climb-on]

snake bites are a bummer did that one 20 years ago

[Mountain Dew]

Bolo.... Ever notice how the E on the keyboard is really close to the S ? This is likely the cause of me using the word "tones" when I meant to use the word "tons". Care to explain this comment is all caps ? Bolo, " GO COCKS" ---

[Magic City]

The treatment of snakebite has always been an argument. When I was teaching EMTs and paramedics, from the four available textbooks, you'd generally find at least three different standards for treating snakebite. Even when the standards changed, they'd differ from one book to another. Personally, I'd probably not carry a Sawyer pump because I think my chances of getting bit are low, but I can't see any reason to object to its use.

[grrickar]

I honestly cannot recall where I read this but it was many years back - a guide I read on snakebites said to kill the snake and bring it to the hospital for identification. While I know that ID'ing the snake is important so they know what type of anti-venin, whoever thought it was a good idea to tell the person bitten to put themselves at risk of being bitten again by trying to kill the snake was an idiot.

[SGT Rock]

I read a manual that siad to kill the snake, it might not help, but at least you would feel better.

[Mountain Dew]

snake bite kits make me laugh. I'd rather carry something more useful .... like some lead weights.

[Youngblood]

I honestly cannot recall where I read this but it was many years back - a guide I read on snakebites said to kill the snake and bring it to the hospital for identification. While I know that ID'ing the snake is important so they know what type of anti-venin, whoever thought it was a good idea to tell the person bitten to put themselves at risk of being bitten again by trying to kill the snake was an idiot.

Don't know this for a fact, but that advise might have been for hunters or other folks toting a firearm who would be able to just shoot the snake. Or maybe lumberjacks who could use something to safely kill it. I know we sometimes forget, but the great outdoors doesn't, or at least it hasn't always, revolve around us defenseless hikers.

Youngblood

[rocket04]

A little off topic on this, but I can't help myself. I met this thru-hiker this year that said he ran into a rattler in the middle of the trail that just woudn't move. He stomped his feet, it wouldn't leave. He poked it with his pole, it wouldn't leave. He threw rocks and it wouldn't leave. Then he said he'd heard some people say if you peed on the snake's head it would leave. He peed on its head, then peed on its tail, and the damn snake still didn't leave! If I recall, he said that eventually, with more and more poking with the poles, the snake finally decided to move out of the way.

[SGT Rock]

Is long as it isn't singing you can get around them.

[zenribbits]

Information pertaining on what to do with a snake bite seems to be skewed by the situation, particular product, personal preference and proximity from civilization. It seems to me that this argument is based on if one particular step in the treatment of a snake bite should or should not be included in the treatment at all. As far as the rest of the treatment, we don’t seem to have any discrepancies. People’s posts have ranged from absolutely not, to definitely. Some of the wiser (in my opinion) stated that if utilizing the device satisfies you psychologically, then you should use it. If someone offered me one, I would use it, based on the idea that if even 5% of the toxins were removed, I would be better off. I would also consider it divine intervention that someone had thought to bring one and crossed my path at the same time I was bitten, therefore god is telling me to use it. That is just me.



In all reality the bite is going to catch you in a fatty area, muscular area, or catch you in a vein or artery on the wrist. The best case scenario for a wet bite would be to get bit on a fatty area because the total absorption rate can be as long as 24 hours and proximal muscles would have greater time until they became affected by the necrosis. If I am two days out, I say suck away with the little tube because, if the venom was injected, it would probably overtax my body to the point of collapse before I am able to walk out anyway. If I am an hour away, I say get out of my way! I have a date with the nurse!!!



We have to remember that statistics are statistics. They can be skewed to show whatever you want. The fact that no one has been bitten on the trail in x amount of years doesn’t comfort me at all. That only indicates on the trail. The books blatantly state that I will need to leave the trail to find shelters, water sources, and the occasional privy. If I get bit at any of those locations, the statistic will still hold true. Plumorchard Gap Shelter is a great example of potential snake encounters during hikes along the AT. Although the “has” leads me to believe that they have been removed, it is also an indication of how real the potential threat of venomous snake encounters are along the trail.



*out of the 2004 thru-hikers` companion*

“Plumorchard gap shelter (1993) – sleeps 14. Privy. The stump in the front of the shelter has been a residence of copperhead snakes. Water source is a creek that crosses the trail or a spring located 200 yards west of the A.T. opposite the shelter trail.”

** Please note I am planning on avoiding the Plumorchard gap shelter if at all possible.



The bottom line (as I see it) with this discussion is that regardless of if you do or don’t use the extractor, you have an unsatisfying trek back to civilization that will probably take at least a couple of hours if you are lucky. This is why I propose we re-classify the extractor as a luxury Item and not a first aid item. I say this because as long distance hikers we don’t carry the recommended first aid kit of band aids and ointment; we use common sence and multi purpuse items such as duct tape (which would also be frowned upon by medical journals as it can cause more complications than good. ie trapping bacteria inside, glue inside wound, tissue damage due to removal, loss of circulation due to swelling, ect) and maybe some gauze (I have cheesecloth in my cooking kit) If you do manage to utilize the extractor to its fullest potential, you will STILL need treatment regardless if it was a wet bite or not.

In short, snake bite bad, treatment good, extras are luxuries.

[orangebug]

Plum Orchard Shelter is no nasty snake den. Copperheads, if they are there, are the less dangerous than rattlesnakes. If you think that Plum Orchard is unique as a snake residence, you are apt to meet an asp in another venue. (Actually, these are pit vipers and not asps, but I liked the alliteration.) You are more likely to meet a rattler around the rocks of PA, VA and NJ than Plum Orchard Shelter.

And it would be terribly amazing if you managed to get a snake bite that penetrated artery or vein. The most common is on the hand and forearm related to unwise attempts to pick up the snake and tell your friends "lookie here!" These are not nearly as vascular as your neck, axilla and groin.

And medical authorities aren't going to give you trouble for treating lacerations, blisters and other wounds with duct tape. Duct tape's adhesives haven't been tested as hypoallergenic, but we all know that it is strong on wet and dry situations and can be used to fashion pressure dressings and wound closures pending more definitive treatment.

The Sawyer Extractor is likely to remain in the first aid kit of maintenance groups and other organized parties of hikers. This is due more to liability and insurance issues than to any probability of injury from snake bite. Anything you choose to put in your pack is a neccessity for you, and possibly a luxury item for others.

[Happy]

[QUOTE=orangebug]Plum Orchard Shelter is no nasty snake den. Copperheads, if they are there, are the less dangerous than rattlesnakes. /QUOTE]

I agree and I remember the thread that Hammock Hangar made that statement on this forum long ago...just not true today...most shelters have residence snakes to contol the mice. In fact Plum Orchard Shelter is my favorite on the GA section!

[zenribbits]

My apologies. I must yield to your extensive medical, insurance, veterinary, statistical, and political knowlege in relation to your well thought out response to my post.