Appalachian Trl. an 'amazing opportunity' for witness - BP News

[JAK]

One reason I like reading old stuff, like the ancient Greeks, and others, is because they had to be so much better at observing nature. Not sure if I am putting this right, but they didn't have our technology and instrumentation to get in the way. They had to really observe, and think. This is as much true of their religious and philosophical scholars as their scientists. There wasn't always such a clear distinction between the two, and still needn't be as DrRichardCranium points out. I would love to go back to those times. Aristotle and others. I read some of his stuff on meteorology.

It would be nice to live in a world with less clutter.

[JAK]

We talk about the importance of carrying maps, even on marked trails. I'm not saying we shouldn't, but it is important to consider that people didn't always have maps. Even people that did use maps, quite often they had to make them themselves. I've always thought that might be a valid option for some modern day explorers and adventurers, and theologions, to throw out all the maps and charts and astronomy, and make new ones.

[fiddlehead]

Mmmmm.
Just woke up to see the latest whiteblaze discussion.
I read most of it and only have this to add:

"Believe Nothing, No matter where you read it, or who has said it, even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason, and your own common sense!" Buddha

[10-K]

I would love to go back to those times. Aristotle and others. I read some of his stuff on meteorology.

It would be nice to live in a world with less clutter.

The only bummer about going back to "those times" is that average life expectancy was like 32 or something....

[10-K]

Mmmmm.
Just woke up to see the latest whiteblaze discussion.
I read most of it and only have this to add:

"Believe Nothing, No matter where you read it, or who has said it, even if I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason, and your own common sense!" Buddha

Kalama Sutta

[JAK]

The only bummer about going back to "those times" is that average life expectancy was like 32 or something....

Yeah, and with my luck I would be a galley slave, in the losing navy. lol

Plenty of time to think though, and sing...

"Row, row, row your boat... come on boys sing along with me!"

[Rockhound]

One reason I like reading old stuff, like the ancient Greeks, and others, is because they had to be so much better at observing nature. Not sure if I am putting this right, but they didn't have our technology and instrumentation to get in the way. They had to really observe, and think. This is as much true of their religious and philosophical scholars as their scientists. There wasn't always such a clear distinction between the two, and still needn't be as DrRichardCranium points out. I would love to go back to those times. Aristotle and others. I read some of his stuff on meteorology.

It would be nice to live in a world with less clutter.

Just for you JAK. Plato on government and religion. "Good people do not need laws to tell them how to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws". Strange you should mention a very secular, logical philosopher as all the big 3 were. As for the difference between religious scholars and scientists, Scientists start with a theory and work methodically towards an answer that will either prove or disprove a theory. Religious philosophers have taken that "leap of faith" and work backwards from a predetermined conclusion. Not good science, for any observations that do not support the conclusion are dismissed. Of course science and religion are alike as well in that they are both essentially the search for truth. I just think science goes about it in a rational logical manner where as religion provides all the answers conveniently written down in a book. A book that can have as many interpretations as people reading it. A book written by the people of power. People who sat and debated and argued and finally compromised as to what stories were to go in the book, Christs divinity, when religious holidays were to be celebrated etc...
I feel, if there is a God, that he gave us the ability to think, to rationalize, to question, to observe etc... To suspend this to take a "leap of faith" would be doing God an injustice by wasting his gift.

[JAK]

Why is it strange? Do you think I am secular or religious?
... or are you just saying I'm not wise. Well, you may have a point there. lol

[JAK]

But that was my point in my next post. I was being metaphorical.
It would be nice to throw the good book away and start from scratch, observing nature.
... which goes back to my first post in this thread.

nice post by the way

[JAK]

This was my first post. Second paragraph is about observing nature...

Well said.

I am somewhat ambivalent when it comes to missionary work on hiking trails.

On one hand, people should be given their privacy, and it seems rather contemptuous to presume that we can compete with nature when sending a message from the Almighty.

On the other hand, some of these hiking trails, like the AT in particular, are somewhat more like the pilgrimages in Europe than a true wilderness hike. You meet alot of people, just like in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. Some of them will be preachers or witnesses. Some of them will be very good at it, and some, not so good.

It's all part of the hazards and experience of the trail.

[DrRichardCranium]

Religious philosophers have taken that "leap of faith" and work backwards from a predetermined conclusion. Not good science, for any observations that do not support the conclusion are dismissed. .

It isn't supposed to be "good science." Religion is NOT trying to be science, or to do the job of science. That is a HUGE misconception that keeps coming up. Science and Religion are NOT replacements for one another.

That misconception is why we have both fundamentalist Christians AND fundamentalist atheists.

[WalkSoftly33]

It isn't supposed to be "good science." Religion is NOT trying to be science, or to do the job of science. That is a HUGE misconception that keeps coming up. Science and Religion are NOT replacements for one another.

That misconception is why we have both fundamentalist Christians AND fundamentalist atheists.

I disagree, they are trying to do the same job. Humans fear what is not understood. Religion tied a nice bow around the unkown. No need to fear, it is in gods hands. Science is not perfect either, the difference is one claims to know the truth the other says its working on it.

How can you say they are not doing the same job?

To name a few

Beggining of the universe
Our place in the universe
Form of man and women
Animals
Formation of the earth
Why john doe died in X accident
The reason we exsist! (neither does but they are both trying)

I am not stating that they are one in the same, And everything you find in religion you will find in science and vice versa, but you have to admit there is a bit of overlap in some major topics with wich they cover.

It is much easier to go through life thinking everything has a reason for happenning. Studies have shown that people who beleive in God (along with preceding statement) will live longer, recover faster from life threatening illnesses than people that do not. The reason I think is that stress kills (there is support on that as well) and believers have less of it when facing the end of life,( ie after life). I think that it has more to do with positive thinking (mind/body connection) than God rewarding or answering prayers.

Just my opinion

- The wet stone of my mind is those that disagree with me, we truly are our brothers keeper.

Lent is as much about gluteny as it is about abstention.

Love and marriage love and marrige go to gether like a horse in carriage, this I tell ya brother...ya cant have one with out the other

how many times can a circle of logic go round?

...into the rabbit hole we go.

[JAK]

They do overlap, but they don't. They overlap in the sense that they are both involved in all the things we see and all the things we do. Science is how we attempt to understand our physical world and existence. We use science to give us physical meaning and purpose and guidance. Religion, or spirituality, is how we attempt to understand our spiritual world and existence. We use religion or spirituality to give us spiritual meaning and purpose and guidance. Do we need organized or orthodox religion/spirituality. That is debatable. Do we need organized or orthodox science. That to is debatable. They are both involved in all things, but they are two different things. Are atheists spiritual? I believe so, some very much so. Are uneducated people scientific? I believe so, some very much so.

[WalkSoftly33]

They do overlap, but they don't. They overlap in the sense that they are both involved in all the things we see and all the things we do. Science is how we attempt to understand our physical world and existence. We use science to give us physical meaning and purpose and guidance. Religion, or spirituality, is how we attempt to understand our spiritual world and existence. We use religion or spirituality to give us spiritual meaning and purpose and guidance. Do we need organized or orthodox religion/spirituality. That is debatable. Do we need organized or orthodox science. That to is debatable. They are both involved in all things, but they are two different things. Are atheists spiritual? I believe so, some very much so. Are uneducated people scientific? I believe so, some very much so.

Well said.

[WalkSoftly33]

An interesting corss over is the study of the human brain, as we begin to understand more about how we understand...could get us closer to the why...just throwing that out there.

[WalkSoftly33]

Jak- reverting back to your statement suggesting soceity should go back to observing nature more. I have always felt more inline with that sentiment. My family is religious, before dinner they say a prayer thanking god for our food. As I sit in silence I thank the Sun, earth, rain and the individuals that raised, transported and prepared the food.

[JAK]

Thanks.

An interesting corss over is the study of the human brain, as we begin to understand more about how we understand...could get us closer to the why...just throwing that out there.

That's interesting. They are learning alot about the human brain.
People have sought to replace religion/spirituality with such things as psycology, psyciatry, sociology, philosophy, physics, and so on. Such endeavours have led to breakthroughs in science, and perhaps in religion/spirituality at the same time, but so far it seems that we can never fully explain away the need for spirituality, or science for that matter. Perhaps in theory, if we ever have all the answers, the two will essentially become one, but I don't think we can ever get there. The human brain is so complex, that even the human brain will never understand it. What hope do we have of ever fully understanding the universe?

As an aside, these are more possible positions in the game of chess, than there are particles in the universe. Even supercomputers will never solve the game, because all the possible positions can never be represented at once, even if the entire universe was used to build one supercomputer. I think the human brain is even more complex than the game of chess, and for that matter, even a gnat's brain.

[Jester2000]

Science is how we attempt to understand our physical world and existence. We use science to give us physical meaning and purpose and guidance. Religion, or spirituality, is how we attempt to understand our spiritual world and existence. We use religion or spirituality to give us spiritual meaning and purpose and guidance.

I will have to send in your direction those who want to tell me how old the earth is based on their reading of the Bible.

[WalkSoftly33]

I know I may be opening a can of worms posting this. Im not saying I agree with this video. It definatly must be taken with a grain( or two) of salt, that said it brings up many points of interest. Those that have seen this understand what Im talking about.

The origins of modern religion is discussed beggining at 13:41 to 39:30 it makes some strong statements about paganism and its role. (fyi, just before 13:41 there is a funny george carlin skit I think even religious individuals can appreciate)

If you wish to watch the whole movie be my guest, I dont think it should be discussed here.

I will apoligize ahead of time. I will understand if this post is removed. But I hope that we can take some of the points as is and have a decent conversation on the topic.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...83847743189197#

[JAK]

Jak- reverting back to your statement suggesting soceity should go back to observing nature more. I have always felt more inline with that sentiment. My family is religious, before dinner they say a prayer thanking god for our food. As I sit in silence I thank the Sun, earth, rain and the individuals that raised, transported and prepared the food.

I really like St.Francis of Assissi's Canticle of the Sun. I like how, at least in the English translation, he speaks of all things as fellow creatures. I never made the connection before, between the word creature and creation. He doesn't worship the Sun, so much as he is thankful for the sun and prays with it, as you might be thankful for and pray with each member of your family. Interesting guy. He never considered himself a Saint, of course, or even a monk. Just a dude. All the rest, the Franciscan Order and all that, was forced upon him. I`m rather like you though. Sometimes I go a step further though, and almost worship the sun directly. I`m a bit of a pagan at heart. lol. But I think to really appreciate Creation for what it is, you almost have to be.


Canticle of Brother Sun and Sister Moon of St. Francis of Assisi

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord, All praise is Yours, all glory, all honour and all blessings.

To you alone, Most High, do they belong, and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.

Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun,
Who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,
Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all weather's moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,
So useful, humble, precious and pure.

Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth
who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.
Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon for love of You and bear sickness and trial.

Blessed are those who endure in peace, By You Most High, they will be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.

No second death can do them harm. Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,
And serve Him with great humility.