sexism on the trail?

[Pootz]

Oh! I didn't mean to imply that most men on the trail aren't great - most are! I hope I didn't come across as combative

But my handful of experiences with less respectable guys have been really startling. I think they make a big impression on me because I never expect to encounter any sexism at all on the trail (I know this is naive to think... you find all kinds in all places)...

I assume the guys you are talking about are the same jerks that we all try to avoid. I have spent lots of nights at shelters and have not seen much sexism on the trail. I have run into general bad behavior on a few occasions. When I come across people on the trail I do not feel comfortable with I either hike on or set up my tent away from them.

[JAK]

If this is an open discussion I would add that hiking a trail together should be a great opportunity for men and women to break down gender barriers, so it is a shame when a group of young men make a women feel excluded in this way, or any other way, but particularly with vulgarity, whether severe or not. Perhaps they thought they were providing some entertainment. Men need to think twice. I've done this sort of thing. Not good.

[RollingStone]

My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been dissapointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.

On the same token, as an older male, I've dealt with younger women who seem to think I'm "Old" and they can do or act in whatever manner they wish. Noisy, disrespectful language, using the word "like" 23 Million times in their conversation with me, glazed over shocked look because I hiked 18 miles that day. ETC

I personally think there are more men on the trail with good attitudes about women than those without and I for one am personally sorry you had to experience that on the trail. I'm sure it was displeasing. Best you can do is ignore it and keep on keepin on!

[double d]

What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?

I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.

I know this is the women's forum, but please define "sexism". If I don't hire someone because of their gender, certainly that is wrong and is sexism. But again, define the term and that might help you.

[Jonnycat]

Some more clarification: I'm not referring to a guy checking out or hitting on a woman. These behaviors go both ways on the trail, I think, and the appropiateness can't be judged in a general way.

Thank you for your clarification, and I agree with that. Owing to where I grew up I have developed a very healthy skepticism for any prouncement of "isms".

[/quote]My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been dissapointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.[/QUOTE]

Hierarchical power plays, of which sexism is but one, are one of the (many) hallmarks of ignorance, and are not limited to gender. Regardless, they do suck, as do those who engage in the more blatant forms of them.

[kanga]

Toolshed, JAK - here is an example from my own experiences: a group of 20-somethings in a shelter at night dropping jokes and anecdotes at the expense of women. This ranges from sexual objectification, to general negativity (regarding things like women's intelligence or mental toughness, for example), to putting down a particular (absent) female hiker. It's definitely used as a tool to establish comraderie. But to clarify: although it is difficult to really join the conversation in these situations, my issue doesn't have to do with feeling secluded - I'm not particularly talkative in general.

bulldog - yes, sexism works both ways. Ideally, no individual would treat any other individual as inferior because of gender (or race, or average mileage, or education level...). It's frustrating in all instances.

good lord, why would you want to?

[warraghiyagey]

Toolshed, JAK - here is an example from my own experiences: a group of 20-somethings in a shelter at night dropping jokes and anecdotes at the expense of women. This ranges from sexual objectification, to general negativity (regarding things like women's intelligence or mental toughness, for example), to putting down a particular (absent) female hiker. It's definitely used as a tool to establish comraderie. But to clarify: although it is difficult to really join the conversation in these situations, my issue doesn't have to do with feeling secluded - I'm not particularly talkative in general.

bulldog - yes, sexism works both ways. Ideally, no individual would treat any other individual as inferior because of gender (or race, or average mileage, or education level...). It's frustrating in all instances.

That's just really well said girl . . . nice work. . .

[warraghiyagey]

I know this is the women's forum, but please define "sexism". If I don't hire someone because of their gender, certainly that is wrong and is sexism. But again, define the term and that might help you.

She already know what the term means. . . you apparently don't and might beg out of the conversation until you actually do. . . a hint. . . it'll take more work than you're imagining right now. . .

[JAK]

I think he just didn't read down far enough. It happens.

[double d]

Good discussion on this important topic-Jak is correct, somehow I didn't read far enough down.

[Lellers]

Interesting topic, actually. I started hiking when I was 18, and there were far less people on the trail, and I think, an even smaller percentage of women on the trail in those long-ago days. Now, I'm old enough to be Redparade's mom. When I was her age, I definitely attracted more attention. There just weren't many solo female hikers on trails in those days. And, of course, everyone warned me that I'd be harassed/raped/killed on the trail. What actually happened was that, with very rare exception, the men were very protective of me. I think that in the early days of my hiking experiences I actually discovered the true meaning of the word "gentleman"; in a place where there were no literal doors to open for me! Now that I'm older and the bloom is off the rose, I'm treated more like the mother figure. Now and then, a group of young men will engage in behavior or conversation on the trail that would fall into the "sexism" category in my book. Generally speaking, my mom-like presence or a well placed mom-look, will cause them to moderate their behavior. Occasionally, I run across people, male and female, who are just completely insensitive. I usually just move on, if possible, or keep to myself for the evening. Occasionally, I will insert some motherly opinions into the conversation. I would have to say that these days I observe much more of a sense of equality on the trail. I can't even think of an instance in the past 10 years or so where someone has questioned whether or not I'm capable of living on the trail simply because I'm female. Thirty years ago, that was a common question. I was often asked how I learned to camp, did I have experience, did I need help, do I know how to set up my tent, was I afraid to be in the woods, etc.

I don't think that any of this is different from what generally goes on in the paved world. No matter what stage of life we're in, there seems to be some sort of -ism that is applied to us. We have to set our own standards of behavior and learn to deal with it or remove ourselves from situations which are truly dangerous or are too offensive to tolerate.

Oddly, I hadn't really thought about this before... not in terms of how this has affected me differently over the last 30 years.

[Slo-go'en]

I wish I was as strong a hiker, as good a cook, as good a camper and had as much endurance as many of the woman I have meet on the trail.

[warraghiyagey]

Good discussion on this important topic-Jak is correct, somehow I didn't read far enough down.

I wish I was as strong a hiker, as good a cook, as good a camper and had as much endurance as many of the woman I have meet on the trail.

Wow. . . . well said. . .

Lellers, Nice post. . .

[sbhikes]

What are your experiences with sexism on the trail? How do you deal with the sexist comments and attitudes of some male hikers?

I have been disappointed by how much sexism - both latent and obvious - that exists on the trail, especially with young thru-hikers.

One of the blessings about getting older is that you stop being a target of stupid boys. At the same time you start to vanish from their eyes and either become invisible or just a person. It's liberating as a woman. I have heard from some older men that they do not like the feeling of becoming invisible, calling it becoming a ghost man or something like that.

I find myself feeling more and more sorry for men. They have it harder. Women are becoming better educated than them and there are less places in the work world for them, especially if they didn't apply themselves in school, which they do frequently because it's not "cool." We're going to have a whole generation or two of men who have a hard time getting a job. I suspect some of their rude comments are partly an attempt to establish dominance in a world that's disempowering them more and more.

[sarah1021]

Just wanted to put in my 2c, as i was nervous about this issue prior to leaving.

i'm a young, fairly attractive (at least i get alot of male attention) small, female. so yes, i was nervous.

but while on the trail, I WAS FLOORED.

EVERY guy treated me like a sister, a daughter, and/or an equal. basically like just another hiker. there were no snide comments, no remarks, whistles, or anything else that would have made me feel uncomfortable. in fact, many were protective in a brotherly way, and warned me about potential dangers. (some may see that as sexist- i do not. i see that as decency.)

I actually started mentioning this to some of the men i met later on in the trip, how i was so very impressed and thankful to their sex for treating me like a hiker and not like ... well, anything less.

so here's one more chance for me to say THANK YOU to all the men i met on the trail! You helped me feel comfortable, safe, and allowed me to enjoy the trail even more!

~Nuthatch

[Lyle]

My concern is the men who find it difficult to see past a woman's gender, and defaultly attach negativity to the gender. I had thought I would escape these sorts of attitudes on the trail, but have been disappointed to be proven wrong by a handful of instances.

Since it appears the male point of view is being welcomed in this thread I will ask a question.

If you don't mind, where did this happen? Early on in the guy's hike? If that is the case, they will probably be a bit more deferential later in the hike, after they have been passed up by, out hiked by, left behind hiding from the weather in a shelter by, and generally been proven the wuss by any number of the women hikers on the trail.

I know this from my personal experience over the years. Many, many, many women are stronger hikers than the men they hang out with. The guys may be able to carry more weight more easily, but that generally means nothing in the long run.

[Daydream Believer]

Just wanted to put in my 2c, as i was nervous about this issue prior to leaving.

i'm a young, fairly attractive (at least i get alot of male attention) small, female. so yes, i was nervous.

but while on the trail, I WAS FLOORED.

EVERY guy treated me like a sister, a daughter, and/or an equal. basically like just another hiker. there were no snide comments, no remarks, whistles, or anything else that would have made me feel uncomfortable. in fact, many were protective in a brotherly way, and warned me about potential dangers. (some may see that as sexist- i do not. i see that as decency.)

I actually started mentioning this to some of the men i met later on in the trip, how i was so very impressed and thankful to their sex for treating me like a hiker and not like ... well, anything less.

so here's one more chance for me to say THANK YOU to all the men i met on the trail! You helped me feel comfortable, safe, and allowed me to enjoy the trail even more!

~Nuthatch

Nuthatch...I think we've met very briefly back in May. You passed me (flying) going up to Blue Mtn Shelter in Georgia and we chatted a few minutes...we commented that we were the only woman we'd each seen that day! Did you make it back home? I have thought of you several times. You stopped in Blue Mtn Shelter and then went on to the Cheese Factory site for the night. Everyone was really impressed with your fitness and strength as we were all tired and ready to stop.

Please excuse me if you are not the same Nuthatch!

On this topic, I found the same treatment out there as you did. While I'm nowhere near as young or as attractive as Nuthatch, I was always treated with respect. Several of the men seemed to watch out for me a bit and I did appreciate their kindness. I made several very good friends that I'm still in touch with. On that trip I saw 4 women total in 7 days on the AT in May.

Funny enough on this same trip, there was an attractive young woman hiker at a shelter later on who undressed down her bra and panties right in front of every one at the shlter with no consideration for their feelings or warning to look the other way. Then she paraded around like this for a while before getting dressed and it was really hard for the guys to not look.

Several of the men I was camping with commented to me later that they felt it was inappropriate and inconsiderate of her to do that for their feelings being out on the trail for so long without their spouses. I think respect and decency has to go both ways. We women cannot expect it if we don't show it also.

[Sierra Echo]

Fight the power!

None of those Hooters waitresses actually have hooters. If i was a man who went to eat there, I would feel cheated. As a woman with a huge chest, I would just feel superior! LMAO

[coyote13]

as a man in my 50's I am amazed at some of the things that pass for 'banter' both on and off the trail.
I was raised to treat all people with respect, and to curtail foul language when women or children are present.
All that being said I have been around and even joined in (showing my rapier wit) anod had fun in the telling of some pretty risque jokes and conversation only to see a woman that had been participating get all huffy when SHE was ready to quit.
I think that in most cases if you are offended and make it known (nicely) 90% of people will accommodate you. of the other 10% just leave them in your dust.

[IronGutsTommy]

unfortunately, sbhikes shows that sexism can go both ways with her overly broad generalization of men, to the point of a stereotype. Theres definitely some neanderthal men out there, and they drive us grown men as crazy as they do women, Im sure. Leave em in your dust, where they will undoubtedly push each other into the bushes and compare., um...sizes.