Scout leaders leading kids to certain doom
Interesting article Professor. Over the years like many new hikers folks have made major mistakes. I will forward it to my staff.
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
Typical LA Times anti-BSA drivel. I'm sure they would be happier if these kids sat inside all day and played X-Box. My 10 bucks says more kids get killed driving to soccer practice than on all BSA activities combined.
Youth groups of all sorts take risks that they shouldn't. I've made bad decisions myself, luckily without bad consequences. ALL people leading kids in potentialy dangerous activities (and that includes plenty more than the outdoors) have a responsibility to not take unreasonable risks, and to make sure the parents are aware of risks.
There are laws against child endangerment.
"It's fun to have fun, but you have to know how." ---Dr. Seuss
How about the thousands and thousands of trip taken by Scouts, led by volunteer adult leaders, every year that don't end in tragedy? Not very newsworthy I guess. I know of a few dozen boys that would have never seen the AT if I didn't take them backpacking every year.
Bob nailed something even I hesitated to say, I am sure this thread is going to stir stuff up here on WB and notice the Facebook Flag of 69 agreements. Although no parent want's a child at risk, this is really frustrating when the deaths of these kids are thrusted in our face with an article like this.
I will point out more people have killed their own children while driving annually, than the BSA number quoted in five years of the article.
http://www.articlesbase.com/law-arti...cs-695796.html
Last edited by Wise Old Owl; 12-05-2010 at 17:58. Reason: adding URL
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
Well, if you read the article, it seems the scout leaders screwed up royally. I'll quote it for you, "11 boys and four adults started at 8:30 a.m. Just one mile from the trail head, most of the troop was already exhausted and decided to turn back.Originally Posted by BobTheBuilder
The scoutmaster pressed ahead with five boys, including Luis. Three hours later the troop was waist-deep in snow. The boys were cold and their feet soaked. Luis was tired, his seventh-grade hiking partner said later.
The group turned back, and soon spread out along the trail, leaving some boys on their own. They began taking dangerous shortcuts between switchbacks. After stepping off the trail, Luis lost his footing and slid out of control over an edge. He plunged 300 feet to his death.
The account of the accident comes from a park investigation, which took statements from the scoutmaster and the other boys."
As a leader you simply cannot allow the scouts to be on their own in this situation. One, they led scouts into a situation they were totally unprepared for. Two, when they did turn back, they ignored the safety of the scouts. You never, EVER, allow an inexperienced group like that to be left unsupervised, strung out, or to take unsafe routes.
Ain't no sugar coating in the world gonna put a positive spin on it.
You guess right. Dog bites man isn't news, man bites dog is. For the most part, scouting is a positive experience for all concerned. That doesn't give them a "get out of jail free card" when they FU royally.
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
Not that I either agree, disagree, or remain ambivalent about the article, but you said "typical LA Times anti-BSA drivel." Please cite one -- just ONE -- other article that you've read in the LA TIMES that's "anti-BSA."
You see, I'm betting that you don't read the LA TIMES at all, much less can reference even a single "anti-BSA" article.
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
•In August 2002, the professional staff at a Boy Scout camp in Pennsylvania sent 300 Scouts from a dining hall to their tents amid warnings of thunderstorms, a lawsuit alleged. Moments later, lightning killed New Jersey Scout Matthew Tresca, 16, while he sat outside his tent. Ronald Holle, a nationally known lightning safety expert, testified for the plaintiffs at a civil trial that the decision contradicted well-established lightning safety practices. The Scouts denied liability, saying the storm had appeared to be clearing.The case was settled for a confidential amount, said the family's attorney, Peter Korn. Four other Scouts have died from lightning since 2004.
Actually details have been left out... and that makes this even more disappointing. They were sent to their group campsites because they have a hard wood roof shelter in the middle of each one. (Put there for bad weather) After the storm he stepped away from the shelter, a rare bolt of lightening came straight down in front of him, a small bolt came up and hit him in the face.
Now think - a lawsuit about an act of god. The organization did take all the precautions.
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
Well, I guess one could take that article as being anti-BSA - being that the article reports the instances and circumstances surrounding the death of four scouts who were minor children while under direction of BSA leaders.
Lets see . . .
A 17 year old died of heat exhaustion while under direction of BSA leaders who ignored early signs of heat exhaustion in three scouts while on a 20 mile hike in 100 deg heat, and failed to make a rescue call for over an hour and a half.
An 11 year old died on an impromptu whitewater canoe outing where proper BSA trip permitting procedures were ignored. The water was so rough rescuers couldn't attempt a rescue.
A 14 year old fell to his death from a ledge when he went out to carve his initials on it on a dare. BSA leaders had let the scouts go ahead of them and away from their supervision.
A 16 year old was electrocuted by lightning when BSA staff sent 300 scouts from the safety of the dining hall to their tents during a lightning storm.
So yeah, I suppose reporting all that could be construed as being anti-BSA. Pretty sad world huh when newspapers resort to printing stories about children's deaths that resulted from the ignorance and negligence of BSA leaders just to push their anti-BSA agenda.
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
Hey its an unfortunate track record of accidents, not everyone can avoid them. But in five years that is a very low incident rate that is rare. It was an interesting read, But is that how you sell newspapers?
Wow.
Dogs are excellent judges of character, this fact goes a long way toward explaining why some people don't like being around them.
Woo
My understanding of Matthew Tresca's death was that he and others were sitting at a picnic table covered by a tarp when the lightning bolt hit the tarp pole approximately 10 feet away from where he was sitting. The lightning strike also injured several other people in the immediate vicinity, knocking them to the ground and causing electric shock.
A camp employee, Dan Pohlig, recommended to another camp leader that the Scouts be kept inside the dining hall until the bad weather passed.
From http://trib.com/news/state-and-regio...e08996863.html
"Marc Spera [the camp's Aquatics Director], testified that he heard reports of an approaching storm on his ham radio and suggested to leaders at the head table that the Scouts be kept longer in the dining hall.
Spera quoted the camp's program director, John Oros, as replying, "No, let it go. I don't want to cause panic."
Oros, in a deposition, denied having any such conversation with Spera. He said leaders at the head table felt the storm had passed and it was safe to dismiss the Scouts.
Had he known of the weather service storm warning, "it would not have changed things," Oros testified. "The campers were in their campsites, a safe place … and a random bolt of lightning struck."
Oros and camp director Gerald Reed said they, like many Scout leaders, had attended a BSA training program known as National Camp School, but testified that they received no detailed instruction there regarding lightning storms.
"Nobody seems to be able to come to a consensus of what is safe," Reed testified. "Nobody says, 'This is what you do."'
Reed said he had never heard of the wait-30-minutes rule. He also said a review of Matthew's death prompted no policy changes: "We didn't find anything that we could have done better."
Raymond Braun, the Cradle of Liberty Council's director of camping, was at the head table with Oros. The decision to dismiss the Scouts was "a fine call," he said, based on observing the weather."
"it would not have changed things", "We didn't find anything that we could have done better", "a fine call", You've got to be f'in kidding.
What a bunch of ........... [deleted by me to save the mods the trouble]
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
I had the pleasure of working for a North Carolina Boy Scout camp and led backpacking & whitewater trips for several years. I've seen excellent adult leadership and I have seen a few examples of adult leaders who had no business supervising youth. It is good that so many scout groups from around the country seek out camps that offer "guided" trips rather than heading off and leading them on their own. That is not to say that there are not camps and individual staff members at those camps that make poor decisions or who are unsafe to lead youth in the backcountry.
This article seems to be limited to scouts and scouting...what are the statisics for other camps and organizations ? Church camps, school camps, sports camps, summer camps, Outward Bound ?
How many children go on vacation each year with a friends family and die while on that vacation ?
"Scout Leaders leading kids to certain doom" ?
32 deaths over a 5 year period.....out of how many total participants on how many outtings ? Seems to me that 32 deaths would be lesss than a fraction of a percent.
I am not defending scouting or claiming that these losses aren't tragic and likely the result of error or poor decison making by the adults present.
I am saying that I firmly believe that scout leaders are NOT leading kids to certain doom and I'm sure the statistics across the board would show that other youth related activities have similar, if not higher numbers of deaths.
"Going to the woods is going home" - John Muir
"Only by going alone in silence, without baggage, can one truely get into the heart of the wilderness" - John Muir
There are currently, according to the BSA website, 2.8 million youth members and 1.1 million adult volunteers. Not that one death is acceptable but just to keep it in perspective.
Today at least one unit leader has to have taken the "Hazardous Weather" online course (40 minutes). It would benefit any AT hiker to take this course, we've had several deaths of hikers from lightning this season.
Newspapers report deaths and the circumstances surrounding them, even if the people and organizations involved are considered above reproach by some. Neither the BSA, the Pope, nor anyone else gets a pass. That's how you you sell newspapers - by reporting what happened - not by spinning a preventable tragedy into praise for the BSA's statistics.
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
We have some anecdotes, tragic to be sure but anecdotes nonetheless, of boys losing their lives along with (usually) irresponsible leadeship.
But what's the inference, what's the conclusion, whats the "news" - that the BSA should tighten its standards for leaders and make sure all possible disasters are prevented. Well OK - they should.
Now how about a series of articles using the same approach - anecdotes - about children dying in car accidents; the circumstances, how could they have been avoided, the irresponsible adults etc. etc.? Since the number would be several times that of the BSA deaths, wouldn't it be news?
BSA has some great leaders, and some terrible leaders. And they're volunteers. So many of the outdoorsman who would be great outdoor leaders won't waste their time trying to introduce kids to the Wilderness, let alone volunteer.
Con men understand that their job is not to use facts to convince skeptics but to use words to help the gullible to believe what they want to believe - Thomas Sowell
Newspapers report news. If they do it thoroughly and wisely they survive and prosper. It's a tough business these days because a large percentage of people no longer have an interest in news for news sake. Even on White Blaze I read again and again people claiming proudly that they don't read newspapers or watch the news on television. They think deliberate ignorance is something good. It isn't.
The incidents of poor scout leadership the newspapers reported are examples of good reporting. To argue as some seem to be doing that because they haven't done an equally fine job on some other stories in no way suggests that they shouldn't have reported these deaths.
Newspapers are human enterprises. They need to break even at least to survive. There's never enough staff. There's never enough wisdom.
Child auto fatalities are reported. But sadly, children dying in car accidents is far more prevalent, so it would be rarely reported outside a local area. It's just too common to be national headline news. That doesn't mean there isn't a push to makes cars safer, and drivers better - there is - but that push itself has been pretty well covered. There has been a fair amount of news coverage about seat belt use, child seats, teen drinking, parent DWI, etc. as it relates to auto fatalities over the years - so I wouldn't say there's a news blackout of any kind. If anything, its common and we're numb to it.
In a kind of dark way, this speaks well for the BSA. Deaths during BSA activities are pretty darn rare, and we don't expect them. For all of the various societal squabbles with BSA as an organization, for the most part we expect kids to very safe when with their leaders. And usually they are. So when something bad does happen, we certainly don't expect a leadership mistake or negligence to have caused it. When it does, that is news, and the presses roll.
"That's the thing about possum innards - they's just as good the second day." - Jed Clampett
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