Trail of Tears, and Cherokee Removal

[Trailbender]

How does it fit the timeline? Indentured servitude was more or less over in North America in the first half of the 19th century, and the largest wave of Irish immigration began with the Famine in the 1840s.

Because it wasn't over then. Even the ones that weren't indentured servants were treated like garbage.

[Bucherm]

Because it wasn't over then. Even the ones that weren't indentured servants were treated like garbage.

Uh, it *was* over, unless you are thinking of being a Bound Apprentice, which is something different, and not limited to the Irish(we even had a President who had been a Bound Apprentice).

I think you're just rooting around for a reason to feel smarmy towards Blacks. "Well WE had a much worse time, so what if my claim doesn't match up to the timeline, or that indentured servitude was voluntary and had a set(in theory) a set time limit."

Tell you what, I want you to provide supporting evidence that the majority of the Irish who came over after the start of the Potato Famine(and so the primary wave of Irish in emigration) were indentured servants in the United States. I would like for you to provide evidence that the death rate for the Irish who came over was higher than that of the Slaves, taking into account the high percentage of slaves that dies in transit of the Middle Passage, after all those Slaves didn't have a choice, whereas the Irish immigrants were taking calculated gambles on their part.

[Trailbender]

Uh, it *was* over, unless you are thinking of being a Bound Apprentice, which is something different, and not limited to the Irish(we even had a President who had been a Bound Apprentice).

I think you're just rooting around for a reason to feel smarmy towards Blacks. "Well WE had a much worse time, so what if my claim doesn't match up to the timeline, or that indentured servitude was voluntary and had a set(in theory) a set time limit."

Tell you what, I want you to provide supporting evidence that the majority of the Irish who came over after the start of the Potato Famine(and so the primary wave of Irish in emigration) were indentured servants in the United States. I would like for you to provide evidence that the death rate for the Irish who came over was higher than that of the Slaves, taking into account the high percentage of slaves that dies in transit of the Middle Passage, after all those Slaves didn't have a choice, whereas the Irish immigrants were taking calculated gambles on their part.

You should study history, and not the PC whitewashed liberal BS. I never said all the Irish were indentured servants, and it did not have to take place at the same time. They were treated worse than slaves, slaves were not cheap, which is why maybe 6% of whites owned slaves. Indentured servants were a lot cheaper, and mistreated more.

I am not looking for a reason for anything, merely pointing out the race card thing is annoying, and every race of people has had it hard at one time or another in the past.

[Bucherm]

You should study history, and not the PC whitewashed liberal BS. I never said all the Irish were indentured servants, and it did not have to take place at the same time. They were treated worse than slaves, slaves were not cheap, which is why maybe 6% of whites owned slaves. Indentured servants were a lot cheaper, and mistreated more.

I am not looking for a reason for anything, merely pointing out the race card thing is annoying, and every race of people has had it hard at one time or another in the past.

So what you're now saying is that the the Majority of Irish who came over to the US were freemen(in the sense that they were not indentured or enslaved)? What percentage of Blacks that travelled over to North America were Freemen?

You implied that the Irish that WERE Indentured servants suffered a higher mortality rate than Blacks that were chattel slaves. Fine. I would like you back up those claims. You made the claim, back it up. I would also like you to explain what moral difference, if any, there is between being forcibly enslaved and volunteering for indentured servitude.

Since you singled out the Irish as being worse off because they were indentured servants, I'd like to direct you to the Wiki page on indentured servitude here. Note that it says:

It has been estimated that the redemptioners comprised almost 80% of the total British and continental emigration to America prior to the Revolution

If the act of indentured servitude is what was bad, then the Irish were not unique in the sufferering, and probably made up a minority of indentured servants.



By the way, asking for evidence to back up your claims is not "white wash liberal BS". If you REALLY did serious study of history you mgiht note that in several of those books there are things called "footnotes" or "bibliography" that the authors use to say where they got their sources. That you're going straight for an ad hominem rather than providing the evidence leads me to suspect that you don't actually have any that quantifies the Irish experience in America as "worse" than the Black one.

[Trailbender]

So what you're now saying is that the the Majority of Irish who came over to the US were freemen(in the sense that they were not indentured or enslaved)? What percentage of Blacks that travelled over to North America were Freemen?

You implied that the Irish that WERE Indentured servants suffered a higher mortality rate than Blacks that were chattel slaves. Fine. I would like you back up those claims. You made the claim, back it up. I would also like you to explain what moral difference, if any, there is between being forcibly enslaved and volunteering for indentured servitude.

Since you singled out the Irish as being worse off because they were indentured servants, I'd like to direct you to the Wiki page on indentured servitude here. Note that it says:



If the act of indentured servitude is what was bad, then the Irish were not unique in the sufferering, and probably made up a minority of indentured servants.



By the way, asking for evidence to back up your claims is not "white wash liberal BS". If you REALLY did serious study of history you mgiht note that in several of those books there are things called "footnotes" or "bibliography" that the authors use to say where they got their sources. That you're going straight for an ad hominem rather than providing the evidence leads me to suspect that you don't actually have any that quantifies the Irish experience in America as "worse" than the Black one.

If you say so. Also, wikipedia isn't considered a reliable source, as all of my professors have stated at one time or another. Yes, there were indentured English as well, I didn't state that only Irish were indentured slaves.

[10-K]

If you say so. Also, wikipedia isn't considered a reliable source, as all of my professors have stated at one time or another. Yes, there were indentured English as well, I didn't state that only Irish were indentured slaves.

Wikipedia is as reliable a source as any other. No source is 100% accurate.

[Gray Blazer]

White Man has a pretty horrible track record and seems intent on burnishing the polish on it continually. We certainly have no laurels to rest on.

Rain Man

.

Too much "white guilt" will get ya. My ancestors died in the Civil war trying to free the slaves. I don't know who taught the greeks and the romans slavery, but, I'm guessing africans?

When one of my black students chides another black student for "akking white" what does he/she mean? That they are behaving and listening to the teacher?

The color of your skin don't matter to me ... as long as we can live in harmony. Why can't we be friends?

[rickb]

Too much "white guilt" will get ya. My ancestors died in the Civil war trying to free the slaves. I don't know who taught the greeks and the romans slavery, but, I'm guessing africans?

Understanding something about history is not about "white guilt".

None of us were alive when Jackson ignored the decrees of the Supreme Court, evicted the Cherokee from their homesteads and then distributed their wealth by way of a government run lottery.

Interesting to ponder what happened on the land where one is walking, though.

[Gray Blazer]

Understanding something about history is not about "white guilt".

None of us were alive when Jackson ignored the decrees of the Supreme Court, evicted the Cherokee from their homesteads and then distributed their wealth by way of a government run lottery.

Interesting to ponder what happened on the land where one is walking, though.

Good post.

[Pedaling Fool]

Everybody screwed the indians.

And now they're paying back http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_865552.html

[ebandlam]

In response to the OP, I always wondered if there was indeed an actual trail for the Trail of Tears. I have seen signs by Fort Payne, AL (on Alabama Rt 35) that shows that it was at one point a Trail of Tears. I learned a wonderful history lesson - thanks to my 8th grade daughter about this sad episode in American History.

I won't go into the politics of time (or today) but there are some points to make
1) There is plenty of guilt to be spread around.
2) More than any other group, American Indians and Blacks did bear a significant brunt of the injustice. Yes the Irish, Italians, Polish, Chinese, etc.. were also mistreated but not as bad as the first two groups.
3) yes there is injustice around the world - both in the past and today and based on current trends unfortunately will continue in the future.
4) Each culture has had its share of saints and sinners.

BTW: I am full Indian (Asian) and my ethnic background has had its share of saints and sinner...

[jbwood5]

The displacement of our natives and the following treatment for many years is a pretty sad piece of history. We should also remember that many white settlers and blacks too were thrown out of their settlements with no compensation in areas of Appalachia, and areas that we currently enjoy hiking in. Stop in at Big Meadows in the SNP visitor center and watch the history movie of how the park was formed. It is pretty sad. The politicians at the time considered these settlements to be made up of squatters who had no ownership rights to the properties and land on which they were living (commonly called white trash). For most of these peoples there was no compensation. Even many TVA projects caused displacements, though many with token compensation. If you were a poor American (native or immigrant) living off the land and had no formal education, you were likely taken advantage of in many areas. The AT has quite a lot of history along the way that is well worth exploring. It is one of the attractions that keeps me coming back over and over again. I learn so much each time I am out there.

[Pedaling Fool]

BTW: I am full Indian (Asian) and my ethnic background has had its share of saints and sinner...

People are people, no ethnicity has the market closed on saints and sinners. A very wise person once told: John....People are a$$hole$.


I guess you had to of been there

[CaptChaos]

every white guy i know it seems claims to be some part cherokee

Lone Wolf:

It depends how long your family has been here in the Country. My family is related to the Beams and they were some of the first settlers that located in Darke County Ohio which was where Gen. Anthony Wayne established Fort Greenville in the 1700's.

So in my family history one of my Grandmothers was Cherokee. We have the census form where she put her mark and it states "Cherokee". Most of the early settlers wife's did not make it out of childbirth or died of the milk fever. So it does not surprise me that one of my ancestor's took a Cherokee woman as a wife in the wilderness.

The Cherokee were in Ohio along with many of the other tribes, Miami, etc..

So yes, it is quite possible that a "White" guy has Cherokee in his family history. I am proud of this part of history in my family even though I doubt that the Cherokee Nation would give me credit for my Great-Great-Great Grandmother being part of the Cherokee Nation.

[Sassafras Lass]

I think most are familiar with the forced removal of the Cherokee from northwestern Georgia under the shameful direction of President Andrew Jackson. While the AT itself doesn't follow the Trail of Tears, I am wondering if any of the blue blazes connecting to it might. Or if there are any historical sights celebrating the Cherokee nation along the AT. To my way of thinking, it would be worthwhile pondering the Cherokee experience when walking through those beautiful mountains. Not sure if there are plaques, markers or other reminders along the way, however.

True, the whole thing is extremely unfortunate and depressing for any person concerned beyond his own hide. But do keep in mind that Jackson was voicing the concerns of the people at the time, and also consider this:

" It will separate the Indians from immediate contact with settlements of whites; free them from the power of the States; enable them to pursue happiness in their own way and under their own rude institutions; will retard the progress of decay, which is lessening their numbers, and perhaps cause them gradually, under the protection of the Government and through the influence of good counsels, to cast off their savage habits and become an interesting, civilized, and Christian community."

The act was selfish in ways, and yet also shows that the movement was intended for the natives to go on living the way they wanted to live, just in a different place. Also note that one of the biggest 'round-ups', so to speak, the worst of them all, happened a few years after Jackson left office.

And I say all this with native blood coursing through my veins - albeit 1/16th. We don't know what people were thinking back then and their reasons - we only see the aftermath and can only scour a few documents. But please don't take this as downplaying the horrors of what happened - simply that history is almost always incomplete, and that in itself is a damn shame.

[Papa D]

They pretty much had to walk to Oklahoma - how about that for a thru-hike? - no osprey packs, no canister fuel, no snickers bars, no marked trail, it would have sucked - - and what did they get? desert land and a hard scrabble life -- it is shameful - really, and I'm not trying to joke about it, but just the hike to Oklahoma - think about it - no guidebook, nothing. We've got it so easy.

[Sailor (The other one)]

"... history is almost always incomplete, and that in itself is a damn shame..." True, but...

"... just in a different place...." "just"?

[Emerson Bigills]

History is filled with man's inhumanity toward man.

I don't condone any of the historical actions that have been discussed in this thread, but I always find it amusing when people judge leaders from centuries before us with the morals of today. I didn't live back then, but even in my short life time, I have seen social morals change. Instead of judging them as villains, maybe we can learn from history, modify our own assessments and teach our children. Just my opinion.

[bamboo bob]

every white guy i know it seems claims to be some part cherokee

Some would say they are all related as part of the Chero-Honkie Tribe. Read 1491 and you'll know a lot more about the native peoples. I think they should all get DNA tested. Likewise all of us of European Stock who think that they were related to various royalties. Mainly a lot of wishful thinking and family mythologies I suspect.

[daddytwosticks]

It's nice to know where you came from. To me, it's really important to know where you are going. So far, I have no clue.