Regarding the Huts in the Whites -- Illegal to Turn You Away?

[Snowleopard]

The AMC huts are privately owned and predate the AT and even the White Mt. Nat. Forest by a lot.
1888: Madison Springs Hut built by AMC.
1918: White Mountain National Forest was created.
1937: AT was completed.

[Fredt4]

The AMC Hut are privately owned and predate the AT, but perhaps AMC has lost sight of the purpose of the huts, to provide shelter to persons on the mountain. The use of the huts as a tourist lodging should always be secondary to safety. That in mind, the tourist are part of the matrix as are the thru-hikers and each should be aware of their own limitations and abilities.

[Sly]

The AMC huts are privately owned and predate the AT and even the White Mt. Nat. Forest by a lot.
1888: Madison Springs Hut built by AMC.
1918: White Mountain National Forest was created.
1937: AT was completed.

The AMC may predate the WMNF but I doubt the Huts are privately owned since they operate under a lease granted by the Forest Service.

The AMC partners with the White Mountain National Forest and is an equal opportunity service provider. The AMC operates Pinkham Notch Visitor Center and its system of backcountry huts in the White Mountain National Forest under special-use permits from the U.S. Forest Service.

[hikerboy57]

The AMC Hut are privately owned and predate the AT, but perhaps AMC has lost sight of the purpose of the huts, to provide shelter to persons on the mountain. The use of the huts as a tourist lodging should always be secondary to safety. That in mind, the tourist are part of the matrix as are the thru-hikers and each should be aware of their own limitations and abilities.

the huts are there not just for safey, but to help minimize imopact above treeline by concentrating hikers at these areas.THEY CHAGRE A FEE TO STAY AT THE HUTS, there is maintenenance done, croo members get paid too, and trail maintenance as well. Ive stayed at the huts, and Im not a tourist. Ive hiked the whites since 1976 in tents, in huts and Ive paid for the privilege.Not everyone agrees with AMCs philosophy, but what gives you the right to stay for free at a privately owned facility everyone else has to pay for.In additon, croo members are not SAR and are not equipped to make safety judgements.prepare properly, watch the forecasts, and heed the signs at treeline, but dont expect the croo to accomodate you.

[The Old Fhart]

Sly-“The AMC may predate the WMNF but I doubt the Huts are privately owned since they operate under a lease granted by the Forest Service.”

Not totally correct. Madison Hut is on 1 acre of land the AMC actually owns. Lonesome Lake is on land owned by the State of New Hampshire and the hut was originally a sporting camp the State bought around 1923 and leased it to the AMC around 1929. The Division of Parks of the New Hampshire Department of Resources and Economic Development built the new hut in its present location around 1963.

Galehead hut was rebuilt in 2000 by the AMC and the new hut has been discussed extensively on WB because of the entrance ramp that had to be incorporated into its design to meet ADA guidelines for all new buildings on USFS land. The USFS lease is for 30 years. The Joe Dodge Center (Pinkham) appears to be outside the WMNF boundry.

Madison reopened this June after an extensive rebuilding. According to the AMC site: “Launched in 2009, the Spirit of Madison Campaign raised $1.5 million: $1 million to rebuild Madison Spring Hut, the oldest hut in our White Mountain system, and $500,000 to create an endowment fund to maintain the hut, provide naturalist programs, and install educational displays.”

[Fredt4]

Hikerboy57, I don't believe we disagree to a great degree. My point is that you ultimately have to be responsible for yourself and reliance on croo members or caretakers for your safety is not wise. The orginal question was not about free or paying, but can they require you to leave. Legally they probably can, but as Andrew Jackson noted, "They made their decision, now let them enforce it". If you're truly injured or in danger not just whimping out by all means decline to leave. Otherwise rest up, plan your next move and continue your hike. I think that too many hiker's both section and otherwise are not prepared to adjust their plans due to lack of planning and experience. A SAR resulting from your refusal to leave is better than hauling a body off the next day. But as you noted the rules are there for multiple reasons, but I believe safety should always be a priority and later we can sort out fees.

[hikerboy57]

Hikerboy57, I don't believe we disagree to a great degree. My point is that you ultimately have to be responsible for yourself and reliance on croo members or caretakers for your safety is not wise. The orginal question was not about free or paying, but can they require you to leave. Legally they probably can, but as Andrew Jackson noted, "They made their decision, now let them enforce it". If you're truly injured or in danger not just whimping out by all means decline to leave. Otherwise rest up, plan your next move and continue your hike. I think that too many hiker's both section and otherwise are not prepared to adjust their plans due to lack of planning and experience. A SAR resulting from your refusal to leave is better than hauling a body off the next day. But as you noted the rules are there for multiple reasons, but I believe safety should always be a priority and later we can sort out fees.

we dont disagree much at all, your post showed the reality of a croo member and how he actually handled the situation. Many times in this forum, croo members were helpful, whereas a few showed some stubborness to adhere to the rules, irregardless of the potential dangers of sending someone out again. I do feel however, that most thrus have been successfully completred without having to rely on the huts to do so. And anyone who hikes above treeline in the whites should be ready to be spanked, unless theyve prepared for it.I thought your post was a very real scenario, and both you and the croo handled it as such. Im sure no croo member wants to send anyone to their deaths, but many of these are kids right out of school that start worrying about liability issues,and of course"rules". As a card carrying nonconformist, I have my own opinion about "rules".In a life threatening situation, you do what you have to to survive, regardless of "rules".yours was a good post.

[weary]

The AMC may predate the WMNF but I doubt the Huts are privately owned since they operate under a lease granted by the Forest Service.

Are you suggesting that you can't own anything you build on leased land? A lot of renters, and manufacturers will be surprised to hear that. Billions of dollars worth of buildings exist on leased lands.

[Happy Feet 2011]

The biggest issue with the AMC that I have is wondering where all the money goes. Their CEO is paid over $200,000 a year(for a non profit that is wild). The trails are maintained by volunteers. Not a single staff member is paid what he is truly worth, they are paid like non-profit employees, with half the compensation being the good of the cause. How about how it is run more like a giant Hotel company rather than as an organization that tries to make the outdoors accessible to everyone. I know I couldn't afford a hut, which is why I only worked for stay but I feel like a non profit that is supposed to support the trail and the wilderness and make it accessible to many is doing a lot of work to keep it exclusive. I mean they don't even have to charge money at the tent sites, I know that they make enough money to cover that from the Huts alone. Don't let anyone tell you that they are only breaking even on those things.

Did anyone else see the ads in the privies this year informing us on how to leave money to the AMC in your Will. Now that is ridiculous.

[Ender]

To be fair, $200K for a CEO of a non-profit isn't outrageous. In 2008, 3 years ago, the *average* salary for a non-prof CEO was about $150K. That's the average, and it includes all the tiny little non-profs out there. The AMC is not a tiny little non-prof, and the $200K salary is pretty much in line with others in that range. In fact, it's probably a little low, as salaries for larger non-profs regularly get into the mid-$200's.

I'm just saying.

The biggest issue with the AMC that I have is wondering where all the money goes. Their CEO is paid over $200,000 a year(for a non profit that is wild). The trails are maintained by volunteers. Not a single staff member is paid what he is truly worth, they are paid like non-profit employees, with half the compensation being the good of the cause. How about how it is run more like a giant Hotel company rather than as an organization that tries to make the outdoors accessible to everyone. I know I couldn't afford a hut, which is why I only worked for stay but I feel like a non profit that is supposed to support the trail and the wilderness and make it accessible to many is doing a lot of work to keep it exclusive. I mean they don't even have to charge money at the tent sites, I know that they make enough money to cover that from the Huts alone. Don't let anyone tell you that they are only breaking even on those things.

Did anyone else see the ads in the privies this year informing us on how to leave money to the AMC in your Will. Now that is ridiculous.

[Lone Wolf]

The biggest issue with the AMC that I have is wondering where all the money goes. Their CEO is paid over $200,000 a year(for a non profit that is wild). The trails are maintained by volunteers. Not a single staff member is paid what he is truly worth, they are paid like non-profit employees, with half the compensation being the good of the cause. How about how it is run more like a giant Hotel company rather than as an organization that tries to make the outdoors accessible to everyone. I know I couldn't afford a hut, which is why I only worked for stay but I feel like a non profit that is supposed to support the trail and the wilderness and make it accessible to many is doing a lot of work to keep it exclusive. I mean they don't even have to charge money at the tent sites, I know that they make enough money to cover that from the Huts alone. Don't let anyone tell you that they are only breaking even on those things.

Did anyone else see the ads in the privies this year informing us on how to leave money to the AMC in your Will. Now that is ridiculous.

the red cross and united way are no different. big salaries for the big wigs

[weary]

the red cross and united way are no different. big salaries for the big wigs

The President of the Appalachian Mountain Club took over a 75-year-old organization that was facing the likelihood of bankruptcy, and made it solvent. I'm not a great fan of AMC. It's too commercial for me, but the top executive earns his pay. I also hear he's retiring, if you think you might qualify. Also retiring is the chief honcho at ATC.

Both groups I suspect, will launch nationwide searches. My suggestion is that they save money by conducting a joint search. Then flip a coin to see who gets the top pick. The loser gets the runner up.

[nehiker]

the red cross and united way are no different. big salaries for the big wigs

The Red Cross and United Way are way bigger and more complicated to run than the AMC, aren't they?

[rickb]

The President of the Appalachian Mountain Club took over a 75-year-old organization that was facing the likelihood of bankruptcy, and made it solvent. I'm not a great fan of AMC. It's too commercial for me, but the top executive earns his pay. I also hear he's retiring, if you think you might qualify. Also retiring is the chief honcho at ATC.

Both groups I suspect, will launch nationwide searches. My suggestion is that they save money by conducting a joint search. Then flip a coin to see who gets the top pick. The loser gets the runner up.

The 100,000 members of the AMC pay its top executive over $300k/year.

Not sure if that is "fair" but for running an an organization with over 200 employees, and an annual budget of around 25 Million that seems to be what Harvard MBA's get these days. Good thing they didn't pay him a commission on all the donnership money he brought in, though-- he would have made out like a bandit.

The ATC members pay its top leader less than 1/2 of what the AMC does. To my way of thinking the less you can pay to get great tallent the better. But getting tallent is the most important thing. The ATC seem to have succeeded on that score. Its a far smaller organization-- about 1/3 the number of employees and a 1/4 of the budget, but in the end getting the tallent is what matters.

On that score, I could never figure out why the ATC raised its leadership team's admittedly low salaries (relatively speaking) by such a high percentage a couple years ago. Did they think any of the old hands would leave or work less hard? Better to have leaderhip that works for love of trail and accepts getting screwed (relative to thier peers in other non profits) to my way of thinking. The board members probably felt great writing the check-- it wasn't thier money and it was the "fair thing to do" after all.

[Sly]

Are you suggesting that you can't own anything you build on leased land? A lot of renters, and manufacturers will be surprised to hear that. Billions of dollars worth of buildings exist on leased lands.

What I'm suggesting is once the lease is up, or broken, for all intents and purposes, the properties are no longer owned by the lessee.

[Fredt4]

Legally speaking, most state laws (not familiar with N.H. Law s) provide that all real (attached building) improvements becomes the property of the owner of the land. So, the correct terminology would be the Huts belong to the . . . , (see previous post regarding ownership of various huts) but are privately operated by the AMC. Unless there is some unknown park regulation, the care taker can require a hiker to move on. But if the caretaker used or threaten force (extremely unlikely) and someone was injured as a result the AMC could be liable. I imagine if someone failed to comply the caretaker would call a Ranger who would resolve the situation. So in pratical terms, all hikers sould be prepared to hike on after an appropriate time of rest and temporary shelter from any passing storm.

[Don H]

The AMC has too much money. If you don't believe tour the Gorman-Chairback Lodge.

[weary]

The AMC has too much money. If you don't believe tour the Gorman-Chairback Lodge.

Well, given the name, I suspect some guy named Gorman paid for most of it, and got what he wanted. But from the photos, it's not something that fits in with what is called "The 100-mile wilderness."

[DavidNH]

I can believe you would actually ask this! What an attitude!!

The huts absolutely CAN turn you away (if they are full or you don't have money). Often you canget work for stay but that's only if you arrive late in day and are very nice about it. it's a privelage not a right. If the weather is bad, I would not be above begging my way (I've done it) into the dungeon below Lakes of Clouds hut. Unlike much of the at, the White Mountains do just fine with the day hikers and weekenders. They have no need or reason to cater to thru hikers. Geez! DONT expect any special treatment just cause you are thru hiking

[WingedMonkey]

Well, given the name, I suspect some guy named Gorman paid for most of it, and got what he wanted. But from the photos, it's not something that fits in with what is called "The 100-mile wilderness."

Leon Gorman is an L.L. Bean Heir (grandson of founder L.L.) and chairman of the board of said company.