GSMNP Thinking of Charging for Back Country Camping. $5 per day Per Person Per Hike?

[jbwood5]

Every site that is built has an impact. You can't go more than a 2 or 3 hours without coming to another site on any of the trails that I recall. Many are 45 minutes apart. I wouldn't want to see any more sites built.

The AT was originally conceived to provide a trail that was within a day's drive of major industrial centers in the eastern US so that working people could use it to recreate. Thru-hiking was not considered a typical use and was considered by many a stunt even 20 years later or so when Earl first did it. Thru-hikers have no more right to trailside shelters than do any other hiker. And all thru-hikers should be carrying suitable tent or tarp should a shelter be full when they arrive. As to creating "additional hardships on thru-hikers" - I think that falls on many deaf ears. Not many folks are going to pity a person who can take a 6 month vacation.

Thru hiking by GSMNP definition means one that has started 50 miles or more outside of the Park and ends 50 miles or more beyond the Park. The original conceived notion was derived from the fact that a day, or up to week of hiking, was physically deteriorating to the human body, but good for the sole (re-creation of the sole). Back in the day, when this idea first came about, the work force was substantially involved in physical efforts, not desk jobs. For years, there was a common belief that hard physical work shortened the life span. There was no high tech backpacking equipment or freeze dried foods. Long distance hiking became attractive when trail sections were joined together. Even where there was no trail, blazes were painted on the roads to connect sections. There was obviously some intent to make provision for long distance hiking, even though at the time, it was not generally thought that someone would hike end to end. Today we have thousands doing it, so it has become somewhat mainstream. You have many people in the workforce that use their entire vacation to do nothing but hike the AT and a lot of teachers and seasonal workers do attempt to thru-hike. I do agree that any long distance hiker should carry their own shelter, which, to me, means they already paid their way. To charge a 2nd time for use of a shelter or a spot outside the shelter is just not right. I just get the feeling that your money is going to subsidize something else and this does create a hardship on thru-hikers. There is nothing these people get in return for their fee. The trails are maintained by volunteers and true thru hikers generally subscribe to LNT. They are in and out of the Park in just a week to 10 days.

[4eyedbuzzard]

Several million use the trail to some degree every year according to ATC. Most are likely day hikers. Some are overnight and or section hikers. A couple of thousand out of all of those people thru-hike. Everybody pays taxes that support NPS. From a standpoint of having to pay an additional fee or not, why are thru-hikers special? I don't believe that on average they do any more or less harm - or good - than section hikers. There just isn't a good argument that thru-hikers (aside from being allowed to self-register, camp if a shelter is full - things that would break the continuity of their hike) should receive any special treatment in terms of fees if they are imposed. Either everyone pays a fee, or everyone doesn't. I prefer that everyone doesn't (and that park ops are supported under general appropriations), but given the current political climate, I may not get my way.

[Wappomo]

Thanks SGT from me too for the in-depth account on the meeting at the Sugarlands. Tuesday morning this week I called a man who lobbies in Washington, DC, on behalf of us who use federal recreation lands. He more or less assured me this backcountry fee proposal is "a done deal" already regardless of the public comments being received. He said the National Park Service feels they have the right to charge the fees for camping in the backcountry of the Smoky Mountains because they were given the authority to do so by the Federal Lands Recreation Enhancement Act of 2005. Here is a link to the text of the sections dealing with the specifics with regards to NPS, FS, BLM, etc. : USDA Forest Service - Recreation, Heritage and Wilderness

Read it carefully, because there are also prohibitions on fees for certain activities or services, or the lack of services. As a catch 22 they can't charge fees unless they provide certain services (and in the Smokies they want to charge fees just so they CAN provide the services of two backcountry rangers - the proverbial cart before the horse).

The Lobbyist told me another major reason they want to charge these fees is to reduce the impact of hikers in sections of the Park designated as Wilderness

[Wappomo]

and by charging fees for backcountry camping there will be fewer people to worry about, thereby protecting the designated wilderness areas of the Smokies which is about 86% of the total land.

The lobbyist also said the NPCA backed the 2005 law in testimony to congress and promoted its passage...in favor of the NPS/GSMNP charging these fees.

[Sly]

Either everyone pays a fee, or everyone doesn't. I prefer that everyone doesn't (and that park ops are supported under general appropriations), but given the current political climate, I may not get my way.

It's kind of ironic that they basically want to charge you to sleep, whereas day hikers and apparently horses (which do far more damage to the trail) and riders still enjoy the park for free.

[Sly]

There is nothing these people get in return for their fee. The trails are maintained by volunteers and true thru hikers generally subscribe to LNT. They are in and out of the Park in just a week to 10 days.

The shelters are being rebuilt, along with composting privies, etc. Those cost money along with rangers to enforce the rules and possibly save your butt if needed. Using your logic car camping should also be free. Maintenance cost money, rangers cost money. While I don't relish paying a fee it frees up space and helps assure people don't abuse the system.

[4eyedbuzzard]

It's kind of ironic that they basically want to charge you to sleep, whereas day hikers and apparently horses (which do far more damage to the trail) and riders still enjoy the park for free.

The only additional from overnight or thru vs day hikers that I see is the impact from camping - fire rings, shelters, privies (although day hikers use these too), firewood gathering, water gathering/use (again, both use and pretty debatable on that one). And while I don't completely agree with it, there is some precident with camping/shelter use fees on federal lands (AMC, RMC in NH, GMC in VT - I believe many of these pay to use shelters/campgrounds are on federal lands). There are free options in these locations, but often they are very inconvenient from a hiking perspective (often 1000 feet or more downhill). In GSMNP, it does sound as if there will be no free options within hiking distance, which I don't agree with. If anything, and given only one or two ranger to patrols, it's just going to lead to more stealth camping in areas that aren't already impacted.

[Sly]

If anything, and given only one or two ranger to patrols, it's just going to lead to more stealth camping in areas that aren't already impacted.

I think the rangers will be smart enough to concentrate on the AT during thru-hiker season. Once it's known one or two hikers received heavy fines for illegal camping and fee avoidance, stealth camping will be at a minimum.

[The Cleaner]

I read somewhere in one of the articles that the fees would be used to help in removing litter left by hikers.Is this something that they've just figured out?Since I started backpackpacking in 1977,I've found litter just about anywhere I've been,that's how I became "The Cleaner".More hikers & backpackers in the backcountry=more trash,left behind ,unwanted gear and all kinds of other stuff that wasn't there until some sorry,lazy,idiot left it there.So now everyone must pay for the stupidity of the few who can't do the right thing.Go figure&pack out your trash and litter from others.Be part of the solution not part of the problem...

[jbwood5]

Even as I am hiking up from the NOC, I usually have no idea of where I will stay in the Smokies, nor will I have access to a computer or telephone to try and make a reservation. For all I know, all the spots could be reserved when I get to Fontana. What am I suppose to do then? More than likely my only choice will be to hike day and night and just lay down on the side of the trail when I get tired. There just may be no camping for hikers passing through the park on the AT

I have not seen a proposal that addresses thru hikers and long distance section hikers. Come April, there is going to be a big mess because because a lot of thru hikers have not even planned for this.

[Wappomo]

Just in case you might be thinking one person cannot make a difference I offer you the story of a woman who won the Nobel Peace Prize for her contributions to sustainable development, democracy and peace. Her name is Wangari Maathai. She started a movement in the 1970's called theGreen Belt Movement in her native land, Kenya, where the British had destroyed most of the forests, and she did so with the help of the Norwegian Forestry Society and seed money from the UN Voluntary Fund for Women. Wangari Maathai - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You can see a documentary about her life, which is both unsettling and inspirational, on PBS's Independent Lens series: Independent Lens . TAKING ROOT: The Vision of Wangari Maathai | PBS (viewer discretion advised)
She started a greening of Kenya movement in the 1970's and endured beatings and repression for many years, but she empowered the mothers of Kenya, stood up for the cause and persevered, finally being elected to parliament in 2002 with 98% of the vote. In 2003 she was appointed Assistant Minister in the Ministry for the Environment and Natural Resources, serving until November 2005. She is now 71 years old and still actively involved the reforestation of Kenya.

I hope you will not give up the fight against backcountry fees in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park even though the public comment period ends August 26. Contact your congressmen and tell them to stop it. Flood their phone lines, asking everyone you know to call. Keep doing so even if the Park imposes a fee. The only way we might get this done is through our congressmen; otherwise it is probably "a done deal" , and once GSMNP has a foot in the door to charge fees other parks and national forests will push the door open wider and wider. Keep FIGHTING!!!

[ed short]

goodness, if one uses a facility, campsite park whatever thenyou should be the one who pays for it. probably 90% of the taxpaying folk never even seer a national park, then why should they pay for it in taxes? I for one think that if I use something I should bear the cost! gnome

[4eyedbuzzard]

goodness, if one uses a facility, campsite park whatever thenyou should be the one who pays for it. probably 90% of the taxpaying folk never even seer a national park, then why should they pay for it in taxes? I for one think that if I use something I should bear the cost! gnome

Greater good concept. Add that NPS does more than just maintain the NP's for public use. There is also an important conservation side to it, which in large part is the reason for park land acquisition in the first place.

[Winterstar1]

Spoke with a ranger today in the park...said thru hikers wouldn't be charged for back country camping on the AT, but they will be (and are) required to camp in tents and not the shelters particularly in March for Northbounders....we'll see

[Panzer1]

Spoke with a ranger today in the park...said thru hikers wouldn't be charged for back country camping on the AT, but they will be (and are) required to camp in tents and not the shelters particularly in March for Northbounders....we'll see

good...

Panzer

[SGT Rock]

The Lobbyist told me another major reason they want to charge these fees is to reduce the impact of hikers in sections of the Park designated as Wilderness

FWIW no of the GSMNP is designated as wilderness. There was a push for it back in the 1980's but a bunch of fighting between the Park Service who wanted to build more roads at the time and had a bizarre plan that divided the area into parts, and the environmentalists who wanted the entire thing designated as wilderness, resulted in the whole thing getting scrapped.

Spoke with a ranger today in the park...said thru hikers wouldn't be charged for back country camping on the AT, but they will be (and are) required to camp in tents and not the shelters particularly in March for Northbounders....we'll see

I'm wondering how he knows this when they folks with the "plan" didn't know how they were going to address AT thru-hikers just a couple one work day ago. I do hope it works something like that, but I don't think that his version of the plan is what the head guys want.

[Gambit]

Before I am apt to pay anything to walk through the GSMNP I would like to know where the tolls will be instated on the entrances of the park. With millions of people visiting the park every year I find it hard that section/Thrus would be pressed to PAY MONEY to walk in the woods! It sounds more like a libralistic idea that isnt going to happen. I know when I am staying at the hilton next April I WILL NOT be expecting to pay to walk.

$5 dollars a day might not be bad but what if a thru hiker had to pay 5 dollars every night he or she stayed in the woods or in a park....? (135+ days) * ($5) = Get off the hikers back!

[SGT Rock]

Well there are rules in the deed about there not being entrance fees to get into the park - they have discussed this point on this thread.

And you won't have to "pay to walk" as you stated. Walking in the back country will still be free, no permit required.

[Wappomo]

The ATC is trying to get with the NPS regarding fees for thru hiking, so you should contact them about fees along the AT in the GSMNP and encourage them to stand up. And Mr. Rock, I looked at your website called hikinghq, and I admire you for starting up your website, but when it comes to charging fees for backcountry camping in the GREAT Smoky Mountains National Park (and of course this is just my opinion) it violates the trust all those school children who gave their pennies for the Park and it violates what John D. Rockefeller said when he gave his $5 million to make it happen, that the Park would be perpetually free for everyone. If the NPS is about to begin charging fees for the campsites in the backcountry they should start charging ev'ry person who enjoys the front-country as well, and I don't mean just the front-country campgrounds! The front-country campground usage is down about 9% this year, and there has NEVER been an obvious Ranger presence in the backcountry to assure a clean camp or anything else. So this proposal is nothing more than a TOE in the door to see what happens, and once the TOE keeps the door open the other Federal agencies who manage public lands will open that door wider and wider until eventually the fee per person to camp in the Smokies (and National Forests and BLM) will escalate right along with the Federal lack of funds. So call your congressmen and senators, call the White House, call the Press, for this may be your last opportunity to fight this (absurd) proposal.

[Joey B]

after numerous phone calls and e-mails to congressmen and senator Lamar Alexander by myself and others, the general consensus is that we're being ignored as those calling are being told, "that's the 1st we're hearing about it."

oh really ???

Lamar Alexander has a FB page.
look it up, like it, and go to his discussion page.
i've started a dialog concerning this issue.
so far it's just a few voicing their opinions.
who knows if we'll get a response from anyone from his staff.
but if they tell folks that it's all new to them, at least there's an on-line record of us stating opinions.

others outside of Tennessee might want to look up their own reps on FB and see if it's a viable outlet to let them know what our concerns are.