GSMNP Thinking of Charging for Back Country Camping. $5 per day Per Person Per Hike?

[Alligator]

Or for tonight?

Yes, overnight tonight, same place.

[SGT Rock]

It looks like you can make a reservation less than 24 hours out by what I can see there too.

[SGT Rock]

It also looks like you can reserve free campsites on this for places that want you to reserve but not pay:

http://www.recreation.gov/camping/Co...7&parkId=70700

[Sly]

Absolutely I would stealth camp! AND advertise it on the Internet. After all, you don't even know whether I'm a guy or a girl, let alone who I really am. Like the NPS would be able to find me to write me a ticket...or even bother.

By the way, is it actually stealth camping if I never set up a tent? Just lie down in the woods with a jacket over me? Hmmm. Like it would be the biggest crime ever to take a nap in the woods somewhere other than an overpriced designated campsite.

It doesn't matter if I know who you are or if you're a guy or a girl, I'm not the one handing out the tickets. What you do is your business, but by bragging about it on the internet, you're encouraging others to break the law, and giving hikers a bad rep while doing it.

Did you go to ATI?

[Sly]

That could be because Glacier charges a $30 application fee prior to collecting any admission fees.

Not if you walk in and work with what they have. That's what I did on two separate occasions.

[Praha4]

Things like this will only get worse with the ongoing budget fights in Washington. We've seen a lot of new fees and taxes in Florida for everything under the sun. Our State Park admission fees have climbed steadily over the years.

It is a shame when one considers the amount of wasted money being spent at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq.

[wisenber]

Things like this will only get worse with the ongoing budget fights in Washington. We've seen a lot of new fees and taxes in Florida for everything under the sun. Our State Park admission fees have climbed steadily over the years.

It is a shame when one considers the amount of wasted money being spent at Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq.

There's plenty being wasted right here in the US and at higher levels and for more years than ever was spent in the other three places. It's not like anyone has proposed that money saved from the end of the Iraq mission will be redirected to NP's.

[wisenber]

It doesn't matter if I know who you are or if you're a guy or a girl, I'm not the one handing out the tickets. What you do is your business, but by bragging about it on the internet, you're encouraging others to break the law, and giving hikers a bad rep while doing it.

Did you go to ATI?

He or she may just be highlighting that new fees can promote behavior that makes the fee system a money losing proposition for the hiker and the park. Like it or not, fees beget avoidance. Sometimes the actions associated with avoidance can make for more impact and worse results than if there were no fees to begin with.

[Marta]

It may reduce some spontaneity to get the permit, but it is not a particularly long process. I just created a user account and a nearly completed a reservation at recreation.gov. I'm guessing most people would take about 5-30 minutes to make the reservation. On the plus side, you may not be walking into a camp full of boy scouts. I am curious too about how they plan to handle long distance hikers.

The issue I have is not using the online reservation system, or making the phone call, or paying the fees, it's what happens when you show up at the park. At most of the fee-collecting parks you can only pick up the actual permit at one ranger station. At Glacier NP, for instance, it takes close to half a day and involves a car or long hitch to get to the ranger station to get the permit. At Mt. Rainier, you have to show up at Longmire before 10 am. Given the crappy road access and nightmare traffic around Sugarlands, that would be the end of Smokies trips for me. Fortunately there is plenty of other hiking around here...

[wisenber]

The issue I have is not using the online reservation system, or making the phone call, or paying the fees, it's what happens when you show up at the park. At most of the fee-collecting parks you can only pick up the actual permit at one ranger station. At Glacier NP, for instance, it takes close to half a day and involves a car or long hitch to get to the ranger station to get the permit. At Mt. Rainier, you have to show up at Longmire before 10 am. Given the crappy road access and nightmare traffic around Sugarlands, that would be the end of Smokies trips for me. Fortunately there is plenty of other hiking around here...

Unlike some of the other NP's, backcountry use has been declining in the Smokies over the last decade. The number of registered hikers will undoubtedly go down with the addition of fees. It will drop further if it's a hassle. These users tend to be the most active advocates and volunteers for the park. I'm just not seeing how animus generated will help develop that support.

[Sly]

He or she may just be highlighting that new fees can promote behavior that makes the fee system a money losing proposition for the hiker and the park. Like it or not, fees beget avoidance. Sometimes the actions associated with avoidance can make for more impact and worse results than if there were no fees to begin with.

LOL... that's not what he/she said. That would go like this... "with the new fees there's bound to be a bunch of stealth camping" rather than, and I paraphrase... "screw them, I'm hiding in the bushes and not paying a dime"

[Carl in FL]

THIS IS SO WRONG. They are counting on the hikers not making any waves on this issue because most of us prefer to avoid political confrontation.

Time then to change that.
Not here but where it matters.

[SGT Rock]

I highly encourage those that have thoughts on this to send an e-mail to the address included in the proposal. And if you are local enough to make it to the open house, do so.

[jbwood5]

I highly encourage those that have thoughts on this to send an e-mail to the address included in the proposal. And if you are local enough to make it to the open house, do so.

Done....
and please feel free to print my postings (along with others opposed to fees) and take them to the meeting. If I could make it, I would go. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to help represent hikers and backpackers, no matter whether you are for fees or not. In the big picture, we are a small group from all over the Country and it is pretty tough to show up in person. Thank you.

[Joey B]

I highly encourage those that have thoughts on this to send an e-mail to the address included in the proposal. And if you are local enough to make it to the open house, do so.

you better believe my hiking partner and i will be there on the 18th.
she also suggests writing Lamar Alexander, Bob Corker, Haslam and anyone above the rank of the park superintendent.

I spend more time hiking and camping in the backcountry of the Smokies and elsewhere than most people on this or any other site. late fall/winter/early spring, I'm there pretty much every week for 2-3+ days at a time. And am in and out of there frequently during the summer tourist season. exploring off trail watersheds and old abandoned routes, roadbeds, etc... is a passion.

I'm not going to get into a back n' forth about the revenue enhancing aspect of this, other than to say they must not plan on paying these proposed backcountry rangers anything close to a living wage.
the $$$ generated by a backcountry reservation fee won't be the massive influx of $$$ the the park superintendent is looking so desperately for.

The issue that most have completely overlooked is, the huge intrusion into the freedom to roam the backcountry.
as it is now you fill out a permit stating where you plan to stay. you're not held to those sites. as any hardcore hiker knows, you may fall short or be much farther down the trail than planned because of pace, weather, or just plain changing your mind as you travel along.
The new plan will require you to stay where you've stated on the permit. not practical whatsoever.
(i talked to a backcountry ranger this past saturday about that very issue)
Plus, i'm not convinced there is a true overcrowding issue once you get one or two sites away from the parking areas.
Just this past weekend i traveled in on the pinnacle creek manway, up jenkins ridge, and down eagle creek back to my kayak. other than the usual hikers at spence field, there was NOBODY on the entire route. Nobody at any of the sites n eagle with the exception of two guys at #89. and around dinner time, a trio on site #90.
A prime summer weekend in an area that should have been at capacity, had next to ZERO users.
Not a lot of revenue would have been generated in that area.

No doubt more law enforcement needs to be all throughout that park.
I've seen hunters with rifles, horseback riders with six guns on their hips.
There's illegal ginseng harvesters, those who introduce brown trout back into creeks.
Horseback riders who continually travel hiker only trails to loop back to other horse routes.
The proper use by backcountry users shouldn't be taxed to fund the control of these lawbreakers.
And you're not going to get enough funding off of the backs of us to solve the supposed overcrowding problem

[Carl in FL]

It makes me wonder what the real intention in this is.
It doesn't seem to be revenue, since that will be self-consuming.

[Alligator]

The issue I have is not using the online reservation system, or making the phone call, or paying the fees, it's what happens when you show up at the park. At most of the fee-collecting parks you can only pick up the actual permit at one ranger station. At Glacier NP, for instance, it takes close to half a day and involves a car or long hitch to get to the ranger station to get the permit. At Mt. Rainier, you have to show up at Longmire before 10 am. Given the crappy road access and nightmare traffic around Sugarlands, that would be the end of Smokies trips for me. Fortunately there is plenty of other hiking around here...

The proposal (see first post) allows for online printing. So you could go right from your house to wherever you plan to drop your car. Most people are going to be pulling their gear out of their house anyway.

What would be nice would be allowing an electronic copy to serve as the permit or perhaps a verbal confirmation number in case a cell phone is used enroute.

[jbwood5]

THIS IS SO WRONG. They are counting on the hikers not making any waves on this issue because most of us prefer to avoid political confrontation.

Time then to change that.
Not here but where it matters.

I have sent the letter in and posted a copy here (scroll down):

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com...ountry-use8535

Please.... everyone please write a similar letter.
Our fees for park use in FL have gone up 100% in just the past few years. The GSMNP fees if adopted, will do the same and soon your backcountry stays will be a significant cost of your hike. The fees will soon be adopted in the National Forests if they get started here. It is totally unneccessary to charge fees for the group that has the least impact to the Park's expenses. This is such nonsense!

Thank you for listening to my rants!

[SGT Rock]

Something I wasn't aware of but found out about today was the recreation.gov only allows 4 days reservations per session. So if you are taking 7 days to hike the BMT through the park, you would have to make two reservations. And it would then charge you the $10 + whatever for both permits. In essence, you would have to pay about twice as much as you should fairly have to in order to do the hike - simply because of the site policy.

[SGT Rock]

http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/nrrsreservationpolicies.html

Holy cow. Don't try to change your hike in the middle of it either.