My sleep system - Help!

[GSLeader_in_NC]

This past weekend I went backpacking in Western North Carolina and the temperatures got down to 37 degrees with a wind chill down to approx. 30. I absolute froze my tail off in my sleeping bag! I'm here looking for help. I am a 5'11" woman, 45, 200 lbs. I was sleeping solo in a 2-man, Big Agnes Copper Spur Tent.

What I have:

Big Agnes Lost Ranger sleeping bag, rated 15 degrees.
Big Agnes Insulated Air Core sleeping pad, rated 15 degrees.

I sleep very cold; always have...I don't have a lot of money to re-invest in other gear, so I'm hoping to modify what I have to make it warmer. I literally took my hands out of my mittens and tested the air in my bag. It was cold! Could it be because air is getting through the insulated air core and coming up from the ground or from the sides of the pad?

Here's the options I'm thinking of. Any others?

1. Carry a blue closed-cell Wally World pad - put it underneath my pad, or IN my sleeping bag?
2. Buy another pad, like a BA Two Track (heavy!) or a lighter one from another manufacturer.
3. Lay a bag liner on the inside of my bag. Not sure that would do the trick tho'...

I love my BA Lost Ranger for the room-i-ness, but I'm thinking it was a mistake to buy something that doesn't have insulation on the bottom - and also lets air circulate right underneath my body. I am a side-sleeper and love the thickness of my 2 1/2 inch IAC. I probabaly could go an inch or so less, but it has to be comfy. I'm too old and curvy to sleep on rock-hardness anymore.

Thanks for any input!

[scope]

Are you cold when you go to sleep, or just waking up cold? I have experienced the Air Core seemingly losing temperature during the night. Makes sense as you sleep your body temperature drops at the same time its getting colder out, and I think the thickness of the BA pad starts to work against you. I had no problems with a Zlite pad on top of the BA pad. You can do it the other way around, and that will help, too, but not as much. Though, the closed cell on top renders the insulation in the BA pad useless. I'm sure a blue pad would work the same. That is probably most of the problem.

As far as the bag goes, the hot water bottle helps warm the bag and warm you, which in turn warms the bag which keeps you warm. That synchronicity will take you longer into the wee hours before you start getting cold.

I've not had a BA bottomless insulation bag, but I do have a top quilt that I've used with the same pad. You should be able to get comfortable in the 30s with that setup.

[leaftye]

My guess is that the down did not fully loft. How thoroughly did you shake it out? Adding a blue pad sounds like a good inexpensive option. The warmth in the air pad might have been somewhat compromised by blowing humid air into it. Using a pump or something like the Instaflator should eliminate that problem. So the blue pad and Instaflator would give you two things to try out for less than $15 total. Also, you should still be warm when you climb into your sleeping bag and have plenty of calories in your stomach. I wouldn't bother with a liner. Getting another insulated pad can be very expensive, especially if that doesn't solve the problem. If none of that works, then I would look into ways of adding down to your sleeping bag since that will add a lot of warmth and is much less expensive than buying a new sleeping bag. If you do opt for another sleeping bag, you might want to consider a quilt instead since you said you're a side sleeper. Take a look at EnLIGHTened Equipment or Hammockgear. Fwiw, I have a quilt from the first company and plan to buy another. You'll need to keep your head warm, and I use a Rayway bomber hat in milder weather and a Downworks down balaclava when the temperature drops much below 30°F.

[grayfox]

All good ideas so far--be sure to fluff up the bag and don't compress it any more than you need to. A hot water bottle in a sock or one of those chemical warmers in a sock work very well too.

Your mattress holds a lot of air which your body needs to heat up. Also it conducts heat into the ground. My favorite inflatable for cold nights is a thermarest prolite plus, but when it is really cold I use two foam pads both full length.

Here is what I would do. I sometimes carry a space blanket formed into a bag. I would use this, or just a sheet of mylar to wrap around the mattress and then put the wrapped mat into the sleeve of the sleeping bag. It will keep your body heat from going to ground as fast. I usually use a piece of all weather space blanket, the thicker kind, as a ground cloth. Or, a thin closed cell pad cut to the shape of the sleeping bag sleeve and placed over the mattress would also help and not take up too much space. The pad would be good for a side sleeper.


Wear your insulation layer to bed, socks, hat, mits, long johns, and down jacket or fleece--only if they are dry. Put your raincoat or poncho over the bag but watch for condensation which would be counter productive. Keep some ventilation for the tent but pitch the low end to the wind.


You have a good bag and pad, these ideas should help you stay comfortable and not have to spend any more money.

[clsvideo]

I too have the air core and between it, my Mountain Hardwear Lamina 35 bag and my base layers, I've been comfortable when it got down to 17 degrees. Do you have too much room in your sleeping bag? That could be an issue. Otherwise your sleep system should be fine at those temps.

[Slo-go'en]

If the air inside your bag was cold, I think you had too many clothes on. The fact you had to take your mittens off to test the air is a clue right there. You shouldn't need more than your thermal tops and bottoms and a hat inside the bag. If you wear too many clothes to bed, you don't loose enough heat to warm up the bag.

[nox]

did you have the pad inside the pad sleeve of the bag or was the bag just laying on top of the pad? if it was just laying on top you might have rolled over enough to uncover yourself from the down and had just the shell covering your back... just an idea. Thats the only time I get cold in my quilt, when i "untuck" myself

[Papa D]

Here are some winter sleeping tips:

1) keep hydrated but pee before you go to bed and don't try to hold pee in - eat carbohydrates - Idahoan instant Potatoes are free in every hiker box in the world
2) boil water and fill a nalgene bottle - don't cross- thread it whatever you do, but sleep with it - warm all night - looks like "scope" mentioned this.
3) sleep in fleece or wool long johns and a stocking cap and barefoot - but not a whole bunch of clothes - not sure why this works but it does (sub 10 degrees, I do add my down jacket)
4) don't breathe into your bag - I know you want to go cheap but a vapor barrier liner is really nice - you can breath through this.
5) Bag under your bag is fine - don't put it inside - this is sort of a newbie thing I've seen - you end up compressing the loft under your bag - invest in a thermorest - they are the best - 3/4 is fine for me
6) sleeping in your tent is warmer than the shelters - no doubt

p.s. I wonder why you sleep solo in a 2-person tent - that's a lot to carry - you might check out a solo tent.

Have fun.

[Franco]

Essentially no bag can turn a cold body warm . All a bag does is to hold (up to a point) the heat you produce.
To produce heat you need fuel. Food is your fuel.
Fats and carbohydrates are your friends. An easy one is a hot chocolate before bed made from full cream milk ( powder)
Spices with dinner is not a bad idea either. Find some that make you "hot" (typically chili/paprika and some curry spices) and add those to your dinner too.
Franco

[Franco]

BTW, I usually add extra virgin olive oil to my dinners and always have some hard cheese and pancetta (loads of fat there...) with me.
In the bush I avoid "non fat" meals...

[Papa D]

yep - ditto what Franco says - here is a perfect carb loaded meal - Bag of Cheesy Potatoes, add 1 foil pack tuna (or maybe baked tofu?), curry powder, extra hot sauce, hot chocolate with powdered milk - sleep well! Also, they say liquor thins the blood and makes you colder, etc. - and that's probably true, but one shot of rum before you fall asleep is really super nice on a cold night.

[Tinker]

This past weekend I went backpacking in Western North Carolina and the temperatures got down to 37 degrees with a wind chill down to approx. 30. I absolute froze my tail off in my sleeping bag! I'm here looking for help. I am a 5'11" woman, 45, 200 lbs. I was sleeping solo in a 2-man, Big Agnes Copper Spur Tent.

What I have:

Big Agnes Lost Ranger sleeping bag, rated 15 degrees.
Big Agnes Insulated Air Core sleeping pad, rated 15 degrees.

I sleep very cold; always have...I don't have a lot of money to re-invest in other gear, so I'm hoping to modify what I have to make it warmer. I literally took my hands out of my mittens and tested the air in my bag. It was cold! Could it be because air is getting through the insulated air core and coming up from the ground or from the sides of the pad?

Here's the options I'm thinking of. Any others?

1. Carry a blue closed-cell Wally World pad - put it underneath my pad, or IN my sleeping bag?
2. Buy another pad, like a BA Two Track (heavy!) or a lighter one from another manufacturer.
3. Lay a bag liner on the inside of my bag. Not sure that would do the trick tho'...

I love my BA Lost Ranger for the room-i-ness, but I'm thinking it was a mistake to buy something that doesn't have insulation on the bottom - and also lets air circulate right underneath my body. I am a side-sleeper and love the thickness of my 2 1/2 inch IAC. I probabaly could go an inch or so less, but it has to be comfy. I'm too old and curvy to sleep on rock-hardness anymore.

Thanks for any input!

I have a non-insulated BA air core mummy pad and in cold weather when I'm not using my hammock I use the pad with a closed cell foam on top of it. The CCF pad does little to nothing underneath except to help minimize punctures.
A roomy bag is tough for the body to heat up. A liner won't help much unless it has insulation and takes up some of that space. Try using a borrowed bag inside of yours, and, if it works, shop around for one to use inside the Lost Ranger. Down booties and pants, as well as a down jacket would go a long way toward taking up some of that empty space and adding insulation.

[Ladytrekker]

I use a neoair and a montbell 15 deg with down and have found the combo perfect for me I tend to sleep cold also. But my friend bought the Big Agnes with pad combination and she was cold all night we were camping in 30 ish degrees. She said she was really cold on the bottom side so I am thinking that her pad does not warm up as well as the neoair I have never felt cold thru mine. Interesting that you had the same issue with that product.

[Deerleg]

Lots of good advice here.
I would add a couple of common sense items that could help a little...
Keep bag stored lofted maybe on a hanger when not hiking to keep like new temp rating longer. I have one old 20 degree bag that is worthless because all the loft has been compacted over time.
Sight selection: When sleeping on the ground look for a "leaf trap" or collect dry leaves (maybe next to a log)both more comfortable and warmer.

[Amanita]

A roomy bag is tough for the body to heat up. A liner won't help much unless it has insulation and takes up some of that space.

BINGO! I used to borrow sleeping bags from my father, who's a foot taller than me. No matter that they were rated to 15 degrees, at even 45 I was freezing. The problem? All that airflow around my body. Any space in your bag that's not taken up by your body needs to be heated. Look for a bag with dimensions as close to the size of your body in both length and width without being undersized as possible.

[Don H]

BINGO! I used to borrow sleeping bags from my father, who's a foot taller than me. No matter that they were rated to 15 degrees, at even 45 I was freezing. The problem? All that airflow around my body. Any space in your bag that's not taken up by your body needs to be heated. Look for a bag with dimensions as close to the size of your body in both length and width without being undersized as possible.

This is why I like the MonteBell U.L. Super Spiral Down Hugger. I used a #3 for most of my thru-hike with a silk liner and was always warm.

[scope]

...3) sleep in fleece or wool long johns and a stocking cap and barefoot - but not a whole bunch of clothes - not sure why this works but it does ...

Essentially no bag can turn a cold body warm . All a bag does is to hold (up to a point) the heat you produce.
To produce heat you need fuel. Food is your fuel....

Too many clothes covers up your warmth, doesn't allow efficient radiation of heat into the air within the fibers of the bag. Yes, a bigger bag is less efficient, but in the 30s it shouldn't be that much of an issue. If anything, its usually less efficient down at the feet, so get some down booties to help.

[Tom Murphy]

I have the BA Encampnent Model which is syn and rated for 15 deg F. I use it with a BA insulted air core. So the only difference in construction between our systems is the insulating material (syn vs down).

I am a warm sleeper and the BA bag is good for me to only ~ 30 deg F. I attribute the "under-performance" to two issues.

1) semi-mummy shape leaves too much internal dead air space
&
2) overly generous rating by manufacturer

I still think the BA concept is valid but if I were to buy another one, I would buy the Divide Series mummy shape and would alos discount discount their stated temp rating by at least 10 deg F. I hope BA applies the European EN standard to their bags someday. I suspect that they do not due to the temp ratings they would be forced to publish.

I bought my son a Marmot bag which is rated for 15 deg F per the European EN standard and that bag works well for me well below its rating with the BA pad; so I have kind of ruled out the BA pad as an issue.

Now when I use the BA bag, I put my empty pack and any extra dry clothing in the BA bag to fill it up more, seems to help a bit.

In the winter, I nest his Marmot bag inside my BA bag and that combo have been good down below 0 deg F [also heavy and bulky has saved me from buying an very expensive winter bag].

[Tom Murphy]

I love my BA Lost Ranger for the room-i-ness.

IMO its that room-i-ness that is causing you to be cold. Sorry.

[Wags]

did you have the brown side facing up on your pad? if not, then the insulation was probably just laying flat instead of being suspended inside the pad :O

was the cold at particular spots or was it a dull, overall chill?