you teach them to ignore it. no woman worth her salt should give a rat's tooter whether or not some creeper on wb thinks she shouldn't be hiking alone.Originally Posted by Amanita
I believe for a new hiker/backpacker the advice has been spot on. A dead winter start is not the smartest thing in the world unless you have winter camping experience irregardless of your sex.
Far as sending your son or daughter who has minimal outdoor experience to springer in the dead of winter is simply ignorant. In the middle of a snow storm there simply isn't any help and how many rescuer are you going to endanger for you folly.
I have many years of winter camping experience, not sure how comfortable I would be postholing or sitting in my tent riding the storm out. the thought of postholing several miles to a road hoping for a ride is not appealing at all.
Of all the deaths from hypothermia in the U.S. every year, virtually none are 20 somethings hiking in the winter. Almost all are 50+ and involve drugs or alcohol and most of those are in the city.
The reality is 17 to 20 somethings with proper gear and not doing stupid things just don't freeze to death from lack of experience on the southern end of the AT. They get cold, they learn their limits and they go find someplace warm. GA is not the whites, it's not Maine and it's not an arctic expedition.
If my parents had followed your advice growing up with winters in Michigan would have been very boring.
As 10-K says,women tend to be "smarter" when it comes to making decisions. As women we have to be on the "defensive" our entire lives, it is a survival skill that we have to learn, maybe men don't realize that! Women know not to sleep in shelters next to a road, to never really trust men on the trail, sleep with one eye open and always keep yourself in a safe zone. Have you ever noticed that women tent more than men? If you're in a tent your are genderless, it's the men who will push you out of the way on the trail to beat you to a shelter. A woman can set her tent up and most will think it must be a guy in there. Maybe a 20 year old is still naive when it comes to a lot of things, a young woman has to have a certain maturity level. But..how dare you say that a 45 year old woman has no business hiking alone!! There are a LOT of men that hit the trail that have business being alone, they have a lot of bravado and go out ill prepared! Women know their vulnerablities and prepare for them! Don't lump all women into a category. Maybe this young woman might not have the experience for a January hike, but don't turn it into "no woman should hike alone"!!
And if they do...they will learn mighty quick...
Good thing the AT is near roads frequently...
Personally I'd never let my 17 year old daughter out there hiking alone in winter. No way. I don't care what experience she has. Not a 17 yr old who is still in high school. Other times of the year I'd urge her to go with a group. I have seen teens go hypothermic. It isn't pretty. It's downright dangerous.
Early 20's, different story...they believe they are an adult and have things all figured out, and they'll do what they darn well please...and learn quickly, many times the hard way...
Last edited by Blissful; 11-04-2011 at 20:24.
There are all kinds of men, and all kinds of women. I know women that are higher level taekwondo blackbelts that can kick my ass easily.
No doubt some can do anything a man can, and better. Most men today in the US are in extremely pitiful physical shape anyway. Beer guzzling fat lardasses that couldnt even jog across a parking lot. Most women are similar. Its a shame. 73% or US adults are OBESE.
However, still not prudent to advise an inexperienced person to set out winter hiking in Jan. , be it a man or woman.
Women, men, make your own choices....wisely of course!
Don't Die Before You've Had A Chance To Live!
WE don't. It comes from within.
The prejudice you women face? I don't think it is comparable with the prejudice You women Used to face not so long ago. So for this part Give some credit to yourselves (and give less but some to your men for being quite avanguard in this issue.
The prejudice women are facing in developing countries and many parts of the worlds right now is IMMENSE.
Being said if this prejudice in refelection leads to posts that I read here like:
and it's also my observation that women are tougher mentally and physically than men on the AT. (lone wolf)
Or this one:
Women naturally have more leg muscle mass, conducive if applied to hiking long range.
More body fat? Yes, helps when you're near death....
Ever had a baby? Pain tolerance?
Mother Nature created women for survival....not Man....he's a dime a dozen( Curtiswoven)
these type of posts are not going to help you vipe out any remaining prejudice. I sincerely expect you women to point out this over the board bold posts by yourself. It is upsetting to find out these posts are not properly addressed by women themselves.
Most of what you said about a solo hiker(female and male doesnt matter) is true. for this reason Solo hikers are statistically safe( hello, not safer just as safe) but your stetement that says and I quote:"In my opinion and experience, I'm far safer totally alone than with others." ruins every little beauty of your post. That is wrong irrespect of gender.period.( I am a solo hiker FYI, an extreme one)
I do not post to this forum out of respect for you all but since I have been called a creep, etc I thought I would make an effort to clarify my post. But first, let me assure you I am a good man and not a creep.
Second, I apologize to all I offended. As I re-read my post I can see that it was poorly written and did not clearly convey my concerns. And, I knew some would see it as sexist in nature even if it was written better but as my kids would have said a few years back, I was just keeping it real.
It was never my intent to question the toughness of women, nor their savvy. That is why I gave my daughter's bio as an athlete. She can pretty much kick my azz in any test of strength and endurance. And let me add that everyday I wake up and look at my wife I am reminded how much tougher and smarter she is than me. So lets set all that aside.
My concerns about an inexperienced hiker taking on a solo January Start have nothing to do with sex. Male or Female, it is simply a bad idea. I am an officer for one of the chapters of "Friends of Georgia State Parks and Historic Sites" and I meet with GA DNR folks all the time and I can assure you that these professionals would all agree with that statement. I just can't believe that any forest ranger, park ranger, or ATC representative would say different. And let me mention, if things go bad these are the SAR folks that will have to endanger themselves to save the inexperienced winter hiker. And then there would be posts all over WB saying what a foolish decision to start in January without any experience and he/she should have to pay for the SAR.
The protections of the group comment was poorly written. I was not referring to hiking in general, I was referring to an AT Thru hike and all involved. I have often written on this forum that I believe the trail is one of the safest places to be for anyone, and that if anyone does come across that creepy feeling to simply move on down the trail. I personally believe that dangerous creeps are generally too lazy to be out hiking. Of course the one exception being that Hilton animal. But that is a very rare case, kind of like lightening striking you.
My concern has to do with the time spent off the trail. And that is where the protections of the group comment comes in. It is the getting to town, resupplying, and getting back to the trail where the realities of sex come into play. There are plenty of creeps out there off the trail that will do bad things to women given the opportunity.
I see folks hitch-hiking or walking from the trail all the time. But I don't see females hitch-hiking of walking alone. It seems prudent that they join up with others when heading to town for the "protections of the group". A young women starting in January would find herself pretty much alone and would have to take on resupply on her own. That is what concerns me. My wife, who I have admitted above being much tougher and smarter than I sees this the same way. A young women hitching or walking the roads alone, it is a bad idea. Is she prejudiced too against women?
Maybe it is simply that we are parents, and I know at times to even our adult children they think we are just stupid and old fashioned. I know, felt that way about my parents for many years. But you know, it seems that the older I get, the smarter my parents become.
Certainly I welcome the discussion. I look forward to others thoughts and as long as I am not personally attacked will again respect your forum and not interrupt again.
FatMan, it was clear to me (and should have been to anyone with an IQ above room temperature) what you meant in your original post. The unfortunate tangent the discussion took was typical WB bull*****t.
You are a valuable member of this site and your comments on trail conditions around the Woody Gap area plus or minus 20 miles are a valuable resource. Sometimes people should think before they talk out of their azz.
Thanks Fat Man!!! I was not going to respond to ".... how dare I!!!", but you have said things we both should have originaly. I showed this thread to my 45 year old hiking, fishing, biking, girl scout leader wife, and she feels the same. She would never go out alone [and never did without a companion, male or female]. I, like fat man, am concerned with our daughters safety in this ever increaseingly nasty world.
I for one have spent alot of time solo hiking between the years 1980-2010 not necessarily by choice. I try to be "street" smart about it. I know there is risk from an injury standpoint. I have had some close calls. Initially, my first time out , I was alone in November 1980 when two partners cancelled.
That being said, when the exact thing happened to my daughter, I made a point to take time off from work and hike with her. It's different as a parent.
Well, what can I say? All of my winter trips include postholing. They also include sitting in a tent riding out a series of snowstorms. And they can easily include postholing several miles on a closed forest road to get to a "better" road for hitchhiking purposes. Last year I got caught in a mean snowstorm with 18 inches of the white stuff and pulled a 12 mile postholing hike on a series of forest roads to get to a better campsite.
My point: Winter backpackers seek out these conditions and of course are comfortable in these conditions. These conditions come with the turf. The question is, should a newbie backpacker start the AT in Georgia in January in similar conditions? Well, from what I described above---No. But the reality is, Springer Mt in January could be 60F with a clear trail and no snow. But knowing what I know about newbie backpackers, well, a January start on the AT is probably a bad idea, though it's easy for old hands to say "go for it"---since we know the real-world implications of being out in the winter. You take one day at a time and bail when needed, easy to do on the AT.
But let's face it, newbie backpackers have to learn everything all at once---getting used to sleeping on a thin sleeping pad, staying dry, staying warm without getting wet with rain or sweat, setting up a shelter in all conditions (and at night), how to read the trail, etc. Now throw in the potential for a foot of snow and 10F?? Too much, too soon.
Springer isn't the issue. Snow in GA isn't usually a safety issue. Plenty of roads to bail if need be. And in the blizzard of 93 hikers were "rescued" from Springer (even if they didn't want to be).
The issue is what happens to these inexperienced hikers when they hit the GSMNP. Those conditions can be markedly different from Springer.
I have always taught my 6yo daughter that the woods are a safe place. I am teaching her how to spot something that could be trouble, whether it be slippery roots and rocks, or a person walking the trail with a dog. She is learning to trust herself, and be cautious but not afraid. Being more self aware will save her life, and lead to more meaning in her relationship with nature. I hope she is never too afraid to take on a challenge alone, because we are always alone at some point. It shouldn't be about male vs female, it should be about being prepared.
As I said in the post---you take one day at a time and bail when needed, easy to do on the AT. There's a lot of distance between Springer and the Park, and a lot of opportunities to bail and end the trip when conditions turn "south".
The Blizzard of '93 is a whole other can of worms. It's not called the Storm of the Century for nothing. A good backpacking buddy of mine named Hoppin John was in the Smokies during the thing and had to get helicopter-rescued. A group of high school kids from the Cranbrook School in Michigan, who were in the Citico/Slickrock during the storm, had an epic experience with consequent helicopter rescue. One student lost half a foot to frostbite and a trip leader lost much more than that (fingers and feet).
I was in a ridgetop mountain tipi near the VA/NC state line near Mt Rogers during the storm and I got walloped but survived in style since I had a woodstove cranking inside the lodge. "Syphilization" shut down for several days, overhead jets stopped, thank god, and we were back to 10,000 BC where we belong. So, yes, winter backpacking can be fun.
I don't think it was typical WB bull$#!7. I think the discussion had been political from the word go. AFAIK, WB is a place to discuss hiking and the outdoors, not leftists policies based on self-imposed victimization.
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